Could A9 be a digital oasis in a desert of PCs and Macs?

By Liam Proven. Published: 22nd Nov 2005, 20:27:59 | Permalink | Printable

Freelance IT journalist Liam Proven reflects on his experience of the A9home in London last night

Photo of an A9home on a desk at Wakefield

AdvantageSix's Stuart Tyrrell flew down from the frozen North of England to the equally-frozen South yesterday to introduce the A9 to ROUGOL - or should that be ROUGOL to the A9? The Spice Lounge, upstairs at the Blue Eyed Maid, was packed out to see the tiny new RISC OS machine.

The A9home will be only the second 32-bit RISC OS machine, even though it's been in gestation since before the Iyonix - but it runs a 32-bit version of RISC OS Ltd's Adjust OS, not Pace's 32-bit RISC OS 5. There's quite a lot of work still to be done - several things don't yet work and the machine is still a little unstable - but it's tiny, fast, cool-running, silent - and around half the price of an Iyonix.

It's a sealed case, so no upgrades are possible to its 128MB RAM and 40GB 2.5" hard disk, but this should keep support simpler for Advantage6 and so lower costs. Other machines are planned for the A9 range, including support for the Linux OS.

It runs most Iyonix compatible 32-bit applications fine and there is already a special version of Aemulor for running older 26-bit apps. Tyrrell says "it will be launched when it's ready, and not before", but he states that this will be in the timeframe of 6 months to a year. Pricing is already firm at £499 for the machine, ex VAT. There's also a partner slimline USB DVD ROM/CDRW combo drive for £75. Experienced RISC OS users who are prepared to accept a pre-production device can already buy units with the unfinished OS, for a discount of around £50. When the final version is released, it will be possible to upgrade these units to the final specification on payment of the difference in price.

A longer version of this article can be found on the Inquirer here.

Links

AdvantageSix website
CJE Micros website - A9home's desktop retailer Past A9 coverage

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Discussion

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I think the original article is quite good. I hope AD6 push for some reviews in press other than the usual RISC OS ones when they release it. It's a fine little machine. The one I have is certainly quite stable.

sa110 on 22/11/05 9:31PM
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Is there a Linux effort for the A9 yet? I imagine it would outperform an SA-RiscPC which has Linux ports, and it would make a nice thin client or even low-power webserver, it's way smaller than a 19" 1U box.

simo on 22/11/05 10:00PM
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As much as I'm a fan of RISC OS, let me just check that this is right... I can have either an A9home, which is just a computer with no monitor, keyboard, mouse or even CD-ROM drive for £499 *ex. VAT*, or I could have an Apple Mac mini, which a 1.3GHz G4, including a CD-RW drive, and wireless networking, for £349.

Yes, it's good to get RISC OS into the normal press world, but is anyone really going to miss this rather major sore thumb?

Smiler on 22/11/05 10:04PM
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I fully understand and appreciate Stuart's comment, "it will be launched when it's ready, and not before" but I can't really hide my disappointment at having to wait another 6 months to a year. :-(

gj on 22/11/05 10:08PM
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Smiler: I'm sure if Advantage6 could sell the same number of A9homes as Apple sell Mac minis, then the price would be significantly lower.

tribbles2 on 22/11/05 11:01PM
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Smiler:

The A9home does come with keyboard and mouse

Revin Kevin on 22/11/05 11:15PM
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Smiler: "either an A9home, which is just a computer"

It's not a computer, it's a way of life :-)

"keyboard, mouse"

Actually, both are included in the price.

Yes the Mac mini is cheaper, but you would struggle to get three of /those/ plus monitor, CD/DVD drive, USB toys, keyboards, power supplies, mice, forty brochures and (presumably) other things into airline hand luggage, which is what Stuart managed.

The main worry from the price point of view is that A9home plus CD/DVD drive comes to 680ukp inc VAT, whilst the cheapest Iyonixes start at 799ukp inc VAT.

But, as Stuart said himself, "if you want a standard size desktop RISC OS computer, go and buy an Iyonix!" The A9home is aimed at a different market. (Which includes many people who already own an Iyonix).

gj: "disappointment at having to wait another 6 months to a year".

Stuart may have been slightly misheard there. He answered "definitely" when asked if the retail version would be on sale within a year, and answered exactly the same when asked if it would be on sale within six months.

dgs

dgs on 22/11/05 11:40PM
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A "sealed" case won't stop it from being upgradable if the case can be in any way cracked open without damaging the contents; the RAM will only be un-upgradable if the rare step of soldering the module directly onto the motherboard was taken, and it is unlikely the hard drive is anything other than a standard laptop ATA. Compared with some of the hacks enterprising users did with the Risc PC like the pizza oven, there is sure to be some level of unofficial upgradabity to this unit, if even it only means replacing the hdd with an 80gb 7200rpm unit. Keen Amigans used to solder wires onto their motherboards to add RAM afterall ; ) What a "sealed" case really means is it'll be obvious when the warrenty has been voided ; )

Clades on 23/11/05 2:23AM
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No, but the rare step of soldering the CPU onto the SODIMM (or rather, CPU card which fits into the SODIMM socket) was taken, which precludes simplistic memory upgrades.

mrchocky on 23/11/05 4:15AM
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Its a shame the STD page looks out of date (still advertises Wakefield 2005) when you follow the link :-(

markee174 on 23/11/05 8:29AM
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A couple of folks have already hinted at the distorted pricing. In order to have a fully working useable computer based on an A9 the actual cost is consderably hugher than £499. The Iyonix price includes keyboards, screens, CD drives etc.

I'll say it again my ARM powered PDA is almost the same as an A9 as far as desktop use is concerned, but costs £170. I have a wireless foldable keyboard (£50) which allows me to use my PDA in "desktop mode".

mripley on 23/11/05 9:03AM
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mripley: "The Iyonix price includes keyboards, screens, CD drives etc."

No, the Iyonix price does not include screens. Substantial discounts on screens were sometimes included as part of special offers, but that's not the same thing.

On the other hand, the A9home is roughly 73% of the price of an Iyonix, or 85% with the CD/DVD drive - not "around half" as suggested in the article. But (as I've said above) they're aimed at different markets, so it's not necessarily a sensible comparison.

"my ARM powered PDA is almost the sme as an A9 as far as desktop use is concerned"

But does it run RISC OS ?

dgs

dgs on 23/11/05 9:48AM
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mripley: That sounds as if you are suggesting that because the a9 is more expensive than a pda, it should not be built?

It's a bit like comparing dates and oranges and complaining that dates are more expensive than oranges because they're smaller, and less popular/available.

DS1 on 23/11/05 9:49AM
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mripley: And like the MacMini, probably sells a lot more. We've been through this plenty of times before. RISC OS hardware has always been more expensive than its competitors (although admittedly it was also more powerful in its early days), and as the size of the markey is so small these days there's just no way that AD6 are not going to lose money if they follow that trend. What they have managed to do is to close the gap, and well done to them for it.

SimonC on 23/11/05 9:50AM
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"The main worry from the price point of view is that A9home plus CD/DVD drive comes to 680ukp inc VAT, whilst the cheapest Iyonixes start at 799ukp inc VAT. ... [but] the A9home is aimed at a different market." I'm not sure I'm convinced - I was under the impression that the "different market" was all those people who have RiscPCs but were never able to justify the price of an Iyonix. So the crucial point is *price*. As you say, however, price doesn't seem much of a strong point

Adam

adamr on 23/11/05 10:05AM
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adamr: "I was under the impression that the different market was all those people who have RiscPCs but were never able to justify the price of an Iyonix"

Who told you that? Whoever it was, certainly doesn't seem to understand the approach Advantage 6 is taking.

Most businesses realise that customers who can't justify handing over money, aren't likely to be very good customers. If 799ukp is too much, then 680ukp is almost certainly also too much.

It's simply not practical to build RISC OS computers cheaply enough that they come free with packets of cornflakes or broadband connections. People who want new machines, are going to have to justify handing over money. People who are only prepared to hand over tiny amounts of money, will have to be happy with second hand StrongARM Risc PCs instead. (Not that there's anything wrong with that).

dgs

dgs on 23/11/05 11:56AM
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dgs: "Who told you that?" No-one specific - just a feeling

Anyway, comparing the A9Home directly with the Iyonix doesn't seem too favourable to the A9Home. Roughly: Pros: small & nice looking, "luggable", ~20% cheaper Cons: lack of expansion possibilities (esp wrt USB2), relatively poor performance

I guess you're saying that we *shouldn't* consider a direct comparison, because the people who'll buy an A9Home are from a different population to those who'd buy an Iyonix - but what distinguishing characteristics do you see those people having?

Adam

adamr on 23/11/05 12:29PM
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dgs: the RiscPC has already become the Douglas DC3 of computing, and will no doubt soldier on for a good while yet. However, despite all the add-ons (ViewFinder, Unipod, Kinetic) the basic architecture involves a 16Mhz bus and a +/- 2Mb/sec HD interface. Combine this with JPEGs or TIFFs from an 8MPix camera for instance and you'll be spending a lot of time looking at that hourglass. The physical components are not getting any younger either. Anyone intending to stick with RO for the long term has to consider either new native hardware or VRPC, and in the former category the A9 looks reasonable value to me.

bucksboy on 23/11/05 12:47PM
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i think this thing is soo cool, it's like a little blue box, where's my computer? it's that little blue box! i think that 500 quids is a very reasnoble price for a new chunk of risc os capable technology, you could impress your mac and pc owner friends by buying three and juggling with them!

nex on 23/11/05 2:09PM
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Nex: When you start juggling, you better swap the drive for a Solid State Drive and tape some batteries on it. So you can do it while they are stil working. That would be real special.

egel on 23/11/05 2:51PM
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As I have no use for a CD drive on the machine (it'll be networked to another box that has a CD drive), and I'm trying to reduce the amount of physical space my computers take up (my next PC will probably be a Shuttle), the small size is a big plus for me, the other big plus being it runs Adjust. I will certainly be looking at getting one when they are "released", as it will allow me to put a RISC OS machine back on my desk, and I might be able to use it more. My RiscPC has served me well, but like others have said, even with the upgrades it's starting to show its age now. The A9 might keep me with RISC OS for a while longer.

cmj on 23/11/05 4:15PM
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Whilst I've no need for an A9 as my main computer, one sitting on the network, discretely tucked away in the corner of the lounge would be nice, networked to my Iyonix, with a small monitor and wireless mouse and keyboard.

SimonC on 23/11/05 4:24PM
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adamr: "Anyway, comparing the A9Home directly with the Iyonix doesn't seem too favourable to the A9Home. Roughly:

Pros: small & nice looking, "luggable", ~20% cheaper Cons: lack of expansion possibilities (esp wrt USB2), relatively poor performance"

From what I know, USB2 is a faster USB1.1. Will it matter much to users, certainly considering RISC OS' typical filesizes, excluding media files ofcourse? Besides, the Iyonix cannot fully handle theoretical USB2 speeds, only a fraction of that. Still a noticable improvement over USB1.1 though. With regard to "poor performance", well, from what I heard from a A9home user, it runs many applications faster than an Iyonix does. Firefox being a noteworthy example. It seemed to this particular user, that RISC OS 4.4x seemed more streamlined and optimized compared to RISC OS 5. In the end, when the A9home is formally released, we will see how it compares.

hEgelia on 23/11/05 5:09PM
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While listening to Stuart on Monday, I suddenly realised that I had a use for an A9, even though I have an Iyonix. It would be a wonderful addition to our amateur theatre's front desk where SWMBO's old RiscPC is running a membership database and Organizer for our facility bookings. Once Liquid Silicon gets their box office programme up and running, the A9 would be a brilliant advert for RISC OS. My great joy is that I could bring it home (no internet connection) to upgrade the database without having to fiddle around with floppy discs, etc.

charles on 23/11/05 5:28PM
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Charles, you read my mind :-)

liquid on 23/11/05 6:11PM
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Reading through all the comments posted so far, many of them seem to be based on suppositions about what market AD6 is aiming at. I hear comments about USB, upgradability of memory, lack of screens etc.

Does anyone actually know which market AD6 are pitching this to? Because it seems to me many of the criticisms or apparent limitations can't really be substantiated without know what its meant for.

As the saying goes "Form follows function"

JDC on 23/11/05 6:48PM
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hEgelia> "Will it [USB speed] matter much to users, certainly considering RISC OS' typical filesizes, excluding media files ofcourse?

But that exclusion, media files, are *precisely* the sort of things USB speed *is* required for. Especially in a machine *whose only form of expansion* is USB - such as in the case of the A9.

hEgelia> "the Iyonix cannot fully handle theoretical USB2 speeds".

But is that more than the A9Home can manage? Yes much more. So why pay almost as much for less then ?

hEgelia>"well, from what I heard from a A9home user, it runs many applications faster than an Iyonix does"

Yes and all computer owners have machines faster than everyone elses

. No, seriously that one will only be addressed when independtly verifiable benchmarks are available. When they are, and when A9 is finalised (not in beta) then we'll be able to judge.

IMHO A9 has no *technical* advantage over Iyonix. It has some *aesthetic* ones in that it is small and therefore might be the proper fit (if you pardon the pun) for certain applications, that might well be a good enough reason to choose the A9 over Iyonix. To feel the need to "justify" the A9 in some technical sense as being superior to the Iyonix is IMHO to completly miss the point.

If, however, you feel the need here you go:

Iyonix can have 1024MB of RAM (A9 can *only* use 128MB and is non-expandible) Iyonix's 80321 Processor (a more advanced XScale) is clocked 50% faster than the A9's ARM920 derivative. Iyonix can have 4 IDE devices - A9 can have 1 Iyonix can do something approaching USB 2 speeds A9 can't Iyonix can accept up to 2 extra expansion cards (e.g., TV card or extra monitor card or other PCI cards driver software permitting) Iyonix can burn CD's and DVD's (A9 currently can't - and when it does it will be slower (USB 1 not USB 2)). Iyonix has Gigabit ethernet (10/100/1000Mb) while A9 only has (10/100) To gain all those advantages only costs you 119 ukp.

So my advice is argue A9's *actual* advantages - its small size/appearence, rather than just either slagging off Iyonix or just pretending it doesn't exist.

AMS on 23/11/05 7:20PM
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JDC>"Does anyone actually know which market AD6 are pitching this to? Because it seems to me many of the criticisms or apparent limitations can't really be substantiated without know what its meant for. "

The limitations either exist or they don't.

If the machine is *not* pitched as a "desktop" computer then the limitations are understandable and explicit. To my knowledge the A9Home is derived from devices aimed at embedded and microcontroller type use. It has been extended by ROL/Simtec/Ad6 to include some "desktop user" friendly features - but it still owes much of its heritage to it's embedded/microcontroller origins.

The trouble is it appears that comparisons are being made between the A9Home and Iyonix (a desktop computer) and that is what opens up the examination of A9 as a desktop computer. This is not something Stuart Tyrell has invited (fair enough) but others have.

If A9Home is viewed as a desktop computer then it has some deficiencies. If its taken to be something "new" a very small, standalone computer then that's fine - it does what it does and people accept it for what it is - rather than lumbering it with unreasonable expectations that might lead to future dissapointment.

AMS on 23/11/05 7:31PM
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In reply to JDC:

"Form follows function"

That's the first adage in a long row, currently ending in: Form follows marketing.

Kind regards, Paul Sprangers

delink on 23/11/05 10:46PM
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The A9home's size and weight is very appealing here in New Zealand for another reason - freight costs. Certainly not to be sniffed at!

webmonster on 24/11/05 7:56AM
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Portabillity is also a huge plus point for me. I'll probably get a new computer in september 2006 this will either be a MacMini or an A9 currently the macmini is winning because of the price for me If the A9 would actually cost 500 quid including Aemulator it would be a top purchase but know I feel it's a bit two expensive.I wonder how much A6 has to pay to Riscos Ltd for the OS

highlandcattle on 24/11/05 11:51AM
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I have a mac mini. purchased after the MD debacle. But the A9 development has convinced me more than enough to start saving for an A9.

A Mac Mini has all the bells and whistles of a modern computer but it still isnt a risc os computer...

rdenk01 on 24/11/05 2:37PM
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Look pals I have seen a low cost ARM board with very good conditions and full pricing. Why buy this crap A9 when we can make our own. However it seems that we must buy 1000 pieces for it and operate it with linux until riscos is ready. They are very helpful and the board is really expandable even with PCI. What do you think. Is it possible to organize some massive purchase as a community. I think this is a don't miss opportunity. [link]

vanag2001 on 28/11/05 11:37AM
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Vasileios: What is the point if it does not run RISC OS?

I make it 100GBP for the chipset with all thats needed (max RAM, high CPU clocking etc.) + postage + VAT.

To turn the chipset into a RISC OS machine you would have to add the cost for the OS itself (50-100 GBP ?), developing work needed to make RISC OS run on this chipset (*), a harddrive, a case, a psu, assembling cost.

*probably the most expensive part.

I don't think it will cheaper than the A9Home.

Grek1 on 28/11/05 12:34AM
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Oh, and thats when buying 1000 units which I find very unrealistic.

Grek1 on 28/11/05 12:52AM
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If the RISCOS users are below 1000 then what is the meaning of RISCOS. If such a cheap arm pc finds its way to users then RISCOS can be significantly cheaper since many users will have the option to try this out on real hardware. Am I the only to see an opportunity? No ARM no RISCOS. This way we could have the solution to the overpriced A9. However you should count Linux/NetBSD users also. Don't be so selfish.

vanag2001 on 28/11/05 1:21PM
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I'm saying there would be less than 1000 interested in buying this machine. I'm pretty sure (given Select/Adjust numbers) there are much more RISC OS user than that - but they won't all be interested in this machine.

Grek1 on 28/11/05 1:31PM
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vanag2001: If you can make a machine from it that'll perform reasonably well and run RISC OS, and be a lot cheaper than any current RISC OS computer, then why aren't you out making them? I'm sure the A9, when considered as a heap of separate components, adds up to quite a bit less than it's going to be sold for, but a pile of chips etc. doesn't make a computer (or make a living from trying to sell one).

SimonC on 28/11/05 2:41PM
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Love is blind.. or, price is sometimes irrelevant.

Who would buy a car with:- no roof, flimsy plastic doors no boot, no rear seats, cramped driving position,, no airbags, no ABS, no power steering, no audio system (too noisy anyway to hear one), poor fuel consumption, and an entry level price of 16000 new? Almost any car on the market is better value than my Caterham - but none of them are as pretty or as much fun to drive :-)

We have just had our study redecorated and my wife's old RiscPC with CRT is noisy and looks out of place on the desk next to the flat screen monitor of my floor standing Iyonix. It has to go.

The obvious machine to buy is another Iyonix. It seems to be better value and would certainly be more compatible with my machine than any other.

But... I want that one! but you ..... I know.

It has to be the pretty little blue box with a copy of Aemulor to run the old software my wife uses to produce the Parish magazine and collect the family email (Impression and Voyager).

And as a bonus I get to try Select/Adjust and see if it is worth signing the pledge for!

JohnR on 28/11/05 4:24PM
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Just some other news for ARM, might be interesting like the above.

[link]

vanag2001 on 29/11/05 10:01AM
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One more !!! [link]

vanag2001 on 29/11/05 10:05AM
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Vasileios: Same issues as the first ones: unlikely to be cheaper than the A9Home when the needed developer effort (to get RISC OS running on the chipset) is taken into account.

Grek1 on 29/11/05 10:41AM
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vanag2001:

Those links look like interesting hardware

However, even though they *might* be capable (I'm not personally in a position to judge) of running RISC OS, I think it's worth comparing them with the existing alternatives.

I'm only guessing, but it looks to me like the A9Home is built around something like the Samsung 2440 Integrated Module built from Simtec: [link]

As you can see, you can get these for less than £100 each. If this is the case, then we can conclude the extra £400 you have to pay for an A9Home goes on things like the hard drive, RISC OS, support, case and the development work of putting it all together into a running system.

So for any alternative boards, you'd probably have to add on pretty much the same cost before you had an available system. That's assuming you have a good idea about what you're doing (if I were to try it would take me 10 years and I'd still not have it working

)

I'm only reiterating what others have already said in this forum and if you think you can get a working system based on the hardware you've highlighted then It'd be great. I'm just not sure it's fair to compare the price of a development board with a fully built and supported commercial system.

If you find any more, I'd still be interested to see them though

I think this one is pretty neat:

[link]

flypig on 29/11/05 10:47AM
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In reply to David

Here is another one [link]

However the above machines are expandable. The one with PXA270 has a lot of features and seems a good start. Later models will have more power. It has a controller (by Intel) with 3D acceleration and why not plug a SATA PCI card or firewire card on it??? All these machines are very promising. If we act as a community we will have very low prices. If we act as individuals we are doomed !!!

vanag2001 on 29/11/05 11:58AM
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Vasileios:

Why not plug a firewire PCI card into an Iyonix? That has PCI slots, after all. Answer? Because there aren't currently any drivers for them, and without drivers, the card is just a lump of plastic and metal that increases your power-consumption. Writing drivers requires information about the hardware which isn't always available, and takes time (so ultimately costs money).

chrisj on 29/11/05 1:47PM
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Yes , but you can plug it into IYONIX , what about A9. The alternative hardware has this option too and IYONIX is too expensive.

vanag2001 on 29/11/05 6:07PM
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Vasileios is trying to say that the A9 isn't that good value/money (I think). And in a way he might be right but we have to realise that A6 is a company with employees who need to feed the monkey and they probably had to pay Riscos ltd (expensive lads they are);Which makes me wonder why A6 didn't go into business with castle OR even better why didn't riscos ltd gave castle their Select and castle the 32 bit os to A6/riscosltd would have speeded up the A9 release significantly

highlandcattle on 29/11/05 8:11PM
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highlandcattle:

Or why Acorn didn't license its technology in the early eighties. Or indeed why I didn't buy Arm shares at 70 pence and sell them at 10 pounds ;-)

Hindsight is a wonderful thing ;-)

STD charges a premium for a small product using a niche OS. Whether that is value for money is a very subjective question. STD are clever people so have presumably taken great care to get the optimum price to produce the best sales result.

markee174 on 30/11/05 08:46AM
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The target niche of this machine [link] is probably almost the same as the A9. A small machine based on an evaluation board with mobile processor and niche OS (Amiga OS like). I'm interested to see how the end-user-price will compare to the A9.

egel on 30/11/05 09:51AM
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Just seen [link] -- the price (if not the feature list) of the A9 compares a bit better here...

chrisrayson on 01/12/05 11:38AM
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!!! My email correspondence with glomation !!!

Dear Mr. Anagnostopoulos,

Thank you very much for your interest in our embedded platform.

The single unit price of GESBC-9315 is $270. The case with power supply and cable is $85.

Regards,

Glomation Sales Team _________________________ Glomation Inc. www.glomationinc.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: Vasileios Anagnostopoulos [[link]] > Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 1:21 PM > To: sales@glomationinc.com > Subject: Question on gesbc 9315 > > Hi , > > my name is Vasileios Anagnostopoulos and I am a PhD student > at National Technical University of Athens Greece. I would > like to get involved in the wonderful world of embedded as a > hobby (arm-linux) . > > I would like to know the price of gesbc 9315. By the way I > would like to know if there is a suitable case for this baby > because I want to attach my dead- notebook hard disk and use > it as a desktop for development. > > I aim at only one piece (not volume). > > Thanks for your information and I am happy to see the Cirrus > processor as a low price product.

vanag2001 on 12/12/05 08:56AM
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vanag2001:

Are you going to buy one?

If you do, you'll have to let us know how you get on with it.

flypig on 12/12/05 9:38PM
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