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Scientologists eyed up RISC OS - new claim

Published: 21st Sep 2006, 14:50:16 | Permalink | Printable

Acorn break-up allegedly attracted interest

Members of the Church of Scientology considered buying RISC OS in 1998 because they wanted to "try something different", it was claimed earlier this month. When Acorn management pulled the plug and broke up the company, Scientologists allegedly pondered stepping in to purchase the intelluctual property rights to the platform to expand their commercial activities.

In the end, the operating system was licensed to various clients of Acorn so they could continue to use the technology, and eventually, Pace Micro and RISCOS Ltd picked up licenses to continue development.


Cruise... addressing scientologists
The Church, which bases its teachings on the work of American sci-fi author L. Ron Hubbard, is popular with today's celebrities, including Mission Impossible star Tom Cruise - who was recently dumped by his film studio for his wacky antics. Cruise, who reportedly has one of the highest levels of Scientology's equivalent to spiritual energy, and his fellow megastars could have become leading global advocates of RISC OS if the Church had taken up RISC OS, as alleged.

Punters at a RISC OS usergroup in Ipswich heard the claims first from Qercus editor John Cartmell, as he recounted his time at Acorn User, which was published by scientologist Steve Turnbull.

A RISC OS software developer who heard John's revelation told drobe.co.uk: "John needs to worry less about educating usergroups about the history of Acorn, and more about producing a magazine on time."

John declined to comment further, but added the story of how RISC OS 4 came into being was "better". The Church of Scientology was unavailable for immediate comment.

• Meanwhile, Gavin at RISC OS friendly printers Crawfords has said the firm could have printed Qercus if John had been willing to reduce the number of colour pages to make the print run financially viable. John has blamed problems with magazine printers not accepting his postscript files generated on RISC OS as the cause of his magazine's lateness - about a year has passed since the last issue was printed.

Links

Scientology on Wikipedia

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Discussion

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What is "Qercus" ;-)

 is a RISC OS Userhzn on 21/9/06 4:38PM
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Is there no end to the rubbish JC will come out with to avoid answer questions about the continuing absence of his magazine.

I'm dissapointed drobe has given any credability to this delusional fiction.

 is a RISC OS Userdruck on 21/9/06 5:54PM
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Let me recommend a classic work "Fads and Fallacies in Science" for the lowdown on Scientology. This story makes my flesh creep.

 is a RISC OS UserGavinWraith on 21/9/06 7:00PM
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I'm not entirely sure this is rubbish. At the meeting of interested parties which was hastily convened in 1998 to try to decide the future of RISC OS after Acorn pulled the plug, Steve Turnbull was accompanied by a scientologist friend who had nothing to do with the RISC OS scene. I vaguely remember Steve telling me that his friend was interested in investing in RISC OS.

 is a RISC OS Userinchiquin on 21/9/06 9:32PM
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www.xenu.net - a must if you want to pee your pants laughing and the complete gibbering ranting Hubbard spouted and how much the cult charges for it's laughable antics.

Idiots and the gullible need only apply

 is a RISC OS UserNodoid on 21/9/06 9:34PM
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inchiquin: maybe they were looking at the oportunity to sell the RO4 PRM volume for £150 each?

 is a RISC OS Userdruck on 21/9/06 11:16PM
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I must say that if those nutters had bought RISC OS, I for one would have dropped it like a hot brick.

These are sick people folks and should best be avoided. Tau Press tricked me into going to a Scientology session (they said it was a business course) and I can tell you first hand, those guys are loopy. And 100% obsessed. Best avoided.

 is a RISC OS Userarenaman on 22/9/06 7:59AM
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don't talk about tom cruise, he's likely to sue you (or have you shot by talking space dogs)

 is a RISC OS Usersimo on 22/9/06 8:21AM
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In reply to arenaman:

Times were certainly interesting at Tau Press. I recall myself, Steve and the rest of the team attending a course every Friday for a few months just outside Knutsford, which was about business management and Scientology. It was intriguing, but also apparent that it was founded on principles to which I could not subscribe, I was like a square peg in a round hole. Mind you, the fish and chip shop in Knutsford where we broke for lunch was marvellous :-)

 is a RISC OS Usersascott on 22/9/06 9:13AM
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Legend has it that these scientologists had a Mission, Impossible to achieve some say. So they got their Top Gun's in to assess if A Few Good Men would be willing to invest in a Risky Business. The Firm they started to set up led by Jerry Maguire ( Born on the Fourth of July) was Far and Away too full of Young Guns who did not make All the Right Moves. They had some Collateral but were accused of Losin It in a stupid way to a japanese company led, rumour hasit , by The Last Samurai in southern Japan. This Cocktail of cock-ups Taps into the very reason why The Outsiders from the US were unwelcome on the Risc OS scene.

 is a RISC OS Usermripley on 22/9/06 9:18AM
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Phew, lucky escape there. Looks like things could've turned out even worse for RISC OS than they have done.

 is a RISC OS UserSimonC on 22/9/06 10:22AM
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sascott - and in an ironic twist of fate, the chip shop is still there (and good - its on my way home) but AFAIK Tau Press and the Scientologist courses aren't. Which clearly demonstates the power of good fish'n'chips. I for one would like to welcome our new fish'n'chip overlords :)

 is a RISC OS Userarawnsley on 22/9/06 10:28AM
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IN reply to MrRipley.

Absolutely brilliant. You are lost on here. Contact The SUN immediately. :-)

Regards Bob

 is a RISC OS Usernijinsky on 22/9/06 11:44AM
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Maybe praying a bit (if that is what they do) might help RISC OS, tried other stuff like buying all the updates to it I could find but even that is dificult now.

 is a RISC OS UserPete on 22/9/06 2:05PM
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Pete: Yeah if charity doesn't work, devine intervention should help ;)

 is a RISC OS Userflibble on 22/9/06 4:17PM
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"John needs to worry less about educating usergroups about the history of Acorn"

In fairness to John, the context of the information was in relation to his acquisition of Acorn User, so at least partially relevant to Qercus. For those who want to know more, the editor of the ICENI club newsletter was making plenty of notes during the evening (so much so that his pen ran out of ink at one point!), but we haven't yet reached press time for the next edition of that particular publication.

dgs

 is a RISC OS Userdgs on 22/9/06 4:24PM
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Nice thing about $cientology (if there is such a thing!) is that no matter how dire a state the business is in, they really do make purdy graphs - pretty meaningless ones as they only ever extenuate the positive and not such simple things like if you're actually making a profit...

 is a RISC OS UserNodoid on 22/9/06 6:33PM
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Can see it now - RISC (Scientology Edition). Everytime you boot it - it gives you a "personality test", it (when you shut down) gives you the audit results and explains how inadequate you are and why you should sign up for a Dianetics course.

And even the "help files" would have a certain spin to them.... what could have been eh ? ;-)

 is a RISC OS UserAMS on 22/9/06 8:08PM
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AMS : Nah - as soon as you try and turn it off, it describes you as an SP and next time you boot up, you either have to go through massive amounts of auditing (further brain washing) with your mouse acting as one end of the e-meter and the keyboard as the other (e-meter = very dodgy Wheatstone bridge, net cost from Maplins, about 25 quid - net price from the cult of $cn, around 3000).

If you decide to quit again, you become subject to being either a type 3 SP or worse than that, be declared as "fair game". Your machine then lies about you, puts smear campaigns out about you, defames you - in fact anything so you either give up and come back or end up dead.

Don't laugh - $cientology has killed. Look up Lisa McPhearson. Left to die under the "care" of the cult.

Thank goodness those whack jobs didn't get anywhere near RISC OS. I'd rather have had Microsoft invest than that bunch. And that's saying something!

 is a RISC OS UserNodoid on 22/9/06 9:06PM
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In reply to AMS: As for "RISC (Scientology Edition)", or on short "RISC (SE)" - ist there any connection to "VirtualRPC-SE" :-)

 is a RISC OS Userhzn on 23/9/06 5:47AM
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Steve's current site is [link] - which includes his bloody awful poetry and some entertaining fiction (in his career section).

His membership of that fruity little club is an irrelevance. He was a crap editor, who stated I would "never work in the industry again" after I objected to his editing of a comparative review for AU of two products which reversed the conclusions to favour the product produced by his own company.

The next year I got a job at Acorn.

I do admire his gall in producing an increasingly thin and weak publication, and letting PFJ teach programming (so much for his skills as a tech editor).

 is a RISC OS UserChimpy on 23/9/06 7:38AM
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Chimpy : wrong mag completely. I did that for Archive. AU stuff was mainly subeditor and CD editor

 is a RISC OS UserNodoid on 23/9/06 8:46AM
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Chimpy: how on earth did you find that Web site? I've been wondering what happened to Tau Press and it's sidekick company for quite some time.

Shame that Steve was into all that Scientology nonsense. I sensed he was a decent chap underneath all that. I am glad to note he says "I" and "me" on his new Web site, thereby suggesting the abscence of one highly undesirable woman who made Tau Press what it was (and wasn't).

 is a RISC OS Userarenaman on 23/9/06 12:17PM
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hzn wrote>"As for RISC (Scientology Edition), or in short RISC (SE) - is there any connection to VirtualRPC-SE"

Oh heck.

You're not suppose to say that *pubically*, the ghost of L.Ron Hubbard will come down (or up depending on your perspective) and force you to watch all of "Battlefield Earth" for saying that. Tsk.

Nodoid wrote >"Thank goodness those whack jobs didn't get anywhere near RISC OS. I'd rather have had Microsoft invest than that bunch. And that's saying something!"

Curiously I'd agree on both counts (well at least with Microsoft you *can* leave...). The other effect is that if Scientology *had* gotten RISC OS and that had become public knowledge both our compeditors (Apple/MS) would have had a *field day* with it - and Schools let's face it being responsible institutions (by and large) would be hardly likely to support and use an OS whose source comes streight out of the "Sinister Zone" (tm) which RISC OS linked to Scientology would have been. Additionally you'd probably have found at the annual shows the RISC OS stand with a small "private" area in which the obligatory "personality tests" would have been conducted.

So on the whole if JC is right - we had a narrow escape.

 is a RISC OS UserAMS on 23/9/06 5:22PM
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arenaman : do you mean the lass that looked like the girl from Atomic Kitten, a.k.a Steve's handler? Horrible woman and probably did more to damage AU and AU's reputation than anyone before her.

AMS : Battlefield Earth is a good one. The only reason why it hit the best sellers list is not because it's any good, but because the $cn "churches" (or brainwashing centres to us wogs) were ordered to "do their bit" to ensure that the sales were great. The book, like the film, sucks almost as hard as it blows.

 is a RISC OS UserNodoid on 23/9/06 7:10PM
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[link] : some of the language used and constructs don't seem right to me - it feels wrong. Hard to put a finger on it, but the advice on writing and some of the other parts seem to draw rather than give.

Steve is a great bloke - underneath the mess the cult has created in his head, he's a wonderful bloke. As with anyone in a cult, the damage is only visible to those on the outside. Tau Press was in a mess financially - I wonder how much of that was down to payments to the cult?

I've always said it and believe it was down to $cn that we fell out - he lied to my wife and then tried to make it look like it was something I'd said. The ironic twist though is that L Ron "Sue the b'stards" Hubbard said was something along the lines that "truth is the universal solvent" (or something akin to that).

 is a RISC OS UserNodoid on 23/9/06 8:28PM
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Nodoid wrote> Hubbard said something along the lines that "truth is the universal solvent"

You mean, the powers that be go to great lengths to prevent us sniffing it?

 is a RISC OS Userinchiquin on 24/9/06 2:42PM
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inchiquin : it was something to do with good communications. The problem is that it was the fraud himself who tried to decide what the truth was - like any dictator.

 is a RISC OS UserNodoid on 24/9/06 2:47PM
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I once heard another astonishing rumour linking religion and RISC OS.

Apparently one JC (note the initials are the same as those of Jesus Christ) was interested in buying both Acorn Publisher and Acorn User and merging them into one publication.

Quite what organised Christianity wanted to achieve in the RISC OS world remains a mystery to this day and as far as I understand we are all still waiting for the second coming of the saviour known as Qercus..... :)

 is a RISC OS Userblahsnr on 24/9/06 7:41PM
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in reply to druck: Why don't we ask our money back from JC, what has been left, and invest it in the brandnew RISC OS magazine called : RISC OS NOW, from Louie Smith, because according my own feelings and maybe others, that there is a BIG chance, that this one will be a WINNER, maybe even a RISC OS Magazine, which comes every 2 months again and again. Its a pity for JC, but sh*t happens if he cannot make his promises TRUE!

 is a RISC OS Userdatawave on 25/9/06 4:11PM
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Istopped buying one RISC OS based mag because of the religious slot at the front.

I just don't beleive in anything. Others can beleive what they want, as long as they dont ram it down my face or harm others.

cheers bob

 is a RISC OS Usernijinsky on 26/09/06 07:09AM
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People should be allowed to preach their religion, but should also accept people telling them back that it's a load of complete and utter nonsense. I don't see why I should have to demonstrate the slightest bit of respect for something that I find ludicrous. That only makes sense for people who claim to believe it.

 is a RISC OS UserSimonC on 26/09/06 10:11AM
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People should be allowed to preach their religion, but should also accept people telling them back that it's a load of complete and utter nonsense. I don't see why I should have to demonstrate the slightest bit of respect for something that I find ludicrous. That only makes sense for people who claim to believe it.

 is a RISC OS UserSimonC on 26/09/06 10:11AM
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Bob Hartley: I found Archive to be a splended magazine. I do agree with your view on the Christian page bit, though. It has no place in a sensible computing magazine and I did used to find it inappropriate and intensely irritating.

 is a RISC OS Userarenaman on 26/09/06 11:49AM
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Is Archive still going, by the way?

 is a RISC OS Userarenaman on 26/09/06 11:50AM
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Ahhh. I didn't want to mention archive because it is an excellent mag. Just the God thing that bothered me.

ATB Bob

 is a RISC OS Usernijinsky on 26/09/06 12:37AM
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I'm sure many RISC OS people will understand what it's like to *know* that something is true, but be surrounded by doubting unbelievers.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not religious myself, I've just always thought that there was a strong behavioural similarity between devotion to a computing platform and devotion to a religion.

 is a RISC OS Userflypig on 26/09/06 12:49AM
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Well, I LIKE the God slot. But as a Christian I would wouldn't I?

If I took exception to articles promoting world views I didn't beleive in, I would have precious little left to read. I think the important thing is tolerance. It is only half a page, and you are not forced to read it. But by doing so you may learn something about the way some of your fellow humans think, and that is never a bad thing, even if you don't agree with them.

 is a RISC OS Usermrtd on 26/09/06 12:51AM
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mrtd: It's mostly the location that's the problem, being as it's as irrelevent to the magazine as a piece on turnip growing would be. The content, being religious, is more annoying than the turnip article would be because preaching is invasive, whereas turnips are just dull.

 is a RISC OS UserSimonC on 26/09/06 1:37PM
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In reply to mrtd: as Simon Challands says, it's not the article that is negative, it's the location. What other computing magazine carries articles about religion?

In reply to nijinsky: short of saying "Archive", you could not have made it more obvious which magazine you were referring to.

 is a RISC OS Userarenaman on 26/09/06 4:14PM
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Can people please get it right. In the UK the cult is not a religeon. In the US it is (mainly as the tax people caved in - this is under review).

Scientology is an evil cult. Full stop. It uses cult tactics to intimidate, controllers, it has only EVER been a money making venture for L Ron (as he was such a crap sci-fi writer) and the corp. behind it. Do not confuse $cn with a religeon - it isn't. Just because a couple of thousand (as opposed to the millions the cult propoganda machine comes up with) say it is so, it doesn't make it so.

 is a RISC OS UserNodoid on 26/09/06 4:40PM
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I edit and produce a church magazine, with an occasional article on computers. So I'm balancing out Archive...

I read the 'Godslot', but have always treated it like an advert if it catches my attention I'll read it, if it doesn't, or I've seen it before, then I'll skip it.

 is a RISC OS UserGeoffP on 26/09/06 5:55PM
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nodoid: But no one has called Scientology a religion, in the article or the comments?

 is a RISC OS Userflibble on 26/09/06 5:59PM
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I dont know why you lot get anoyed with that advert, its just like any other advert its just to do with christianity.

Im guessing you usally skip adverts (ones that dont intrest you), so whats the problem?

 is a RISC OS UserMikeCarter on 26/09/06 7:46PM
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I find it incredible that somebody would stop buying a magazine for (as I remember it) a small paragraph filling the bottom 1/4 of the front inside cover. Not forgetting the acknowledgement Paul Beverley included that those not interested should not worry about it.

Personally I found it a welcome addition and something that gave the magazine its uniqueness. I wish I had looked more into the things he was talking about that-s for sure, I'm certain it would have saved me a lot of heartache over the years!

Simon C

" I don't see why I should have to demonstrate the slightest bit of respect for something that I find ludicrous."

Sounds awfully like religious intolerance - the REAL cause of most ot the bloodshed the world has seen.

Shape up.

 is a RISC OS UserAW on 26/09/06 7:59PM
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Cos you need a man.

 is a RISC OS Usermoss on 26/09/06 9:24PM
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AW: This came up a while back. Archive always has had that little tag about it being nothing to do with RISC OS, but the Christian faith. It's clear and you can skip it if you want (I always did). Paul has never made a secret of his faith and to be honest, he is to be admired for his candor in this matter.

This was never the case for AU.

I remember just after the Acorn auction for Comic Relief going to Tau Press looking for a job (Steve had actually offered me one). I recall being sat in a nice big room and Steve start up saying that AU was run along the business lines of L. Ron Hubbard and the Scientology religeon. My reply - I don't go in for all of this mumbo jumbo. As long as I can get my job done unhindered and without fuss, then I'm happy and work well.

I'd heard of Hubbard in passing. The business looked good - lots of people, back issues, good bank balance and lots of good feeling to it - this despite Black Thursday happening a couple of months before hand.

The next time I saw AU it was in Stockport (where it was before Finnybank took it over). Not so many people, crowded offices (two offices, a couple of desks, still lots of graphs). This was *just* before the big cash crisis where they'd not been paying people for ages. It was best described as "disorganised mayhem". Things worked, but not in a good way. Steve seemed to be snowed under and there was a lack of control or order.

The brown stuff hit the fan. Just about everyone went. The production editor was still there on a part time basis, the rest of the time Steve spent learning the production editor's job. This is probably when things started to rocket down hill - there was no-one there to check on spelling and grammar. Actually, that's not true, there was one other person there - someone the other Tau partners had brought in to rescue things. She did by (from what I can gather) being unpleasant to long time advertisers and other such people. Whenever I went in though, she seemed to do very little except watch Steve. It was creepy!

A small example. The first couple of AU CDs I did were paid for. The cash problems hit and I said that as long as Tau covered my expenses, I'd carry on. No charge for internet access or the likes, but I would need replacement CDs and postage. Steve agreed this (apologetically - I think he knew that I was doing this because we'd known each other since the launch of the A5000). A bill was sent from a local RISC OS company for a box of 10 CDs and apparently, she went ape having never agreed it! Controlling or what!

Back to the adverts...

The Dianetics adverts came with no warning. There was also the problem that with AU going down the tubes with revenues and bank balances (though the graphs on the walls were nice to look at - lots of pretty colours signifying nothing). The Dianetics adverts were freebies. The cult would not have paid for them - certainly not with the cult controlling the magazine. If anything, they cost the magazine as people actually stopped getting it when they appeared and if memory serves correctly, the company would pay the cult for "business advice" and other such garbage.

The saddest part of this is that Steve could not see how much damage the cult had cost his magazine. I remember getting an email before Tau came into being asking for advice on the wording of a press release. He was over the moon, overjoyed and elated. The last time we spoke, he sounded at breaking point. Not the man I'd known, but one sorely put upon and unable to see the root cause of the problems. If he'd have spoken to a real business advisor rather than one from the cult, who knows - the community may still have a 4 weekly magazine!

 is a RISC OS UserNodoid on 26/09/06 11:24PM
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"Simon C

" I don't see why I should have to demonstrate the slightest bit of respect for something that I find ludicrous."

Sounds awfully like religious intolerance - the REAL cause of most ot the bloodshed the world has seen. "

Huh? I'm supposed to not find it stupid, even though I think it is? Why on earth should I have any respect for a load of superstitious claptrap? It makes no more sense to me than saying you did something because the little blue pixies told you to, but you appear to think I shouldn't be allowed those views? I'm not saying people shouldn't be allowed to believe stuff, but I shouldn't be prevented from saying what I think of it either.

Religious intolerance leading to bloodshed is generally when different religions clash, and they decide to kill each other because they have committed the hideous crime of believing in the wrong bit of fiction. That is nothing like my mindset.

There's nothing wrong with saying you shouldn't do or think something, it's only when you say that people can't that you're going wrong.

 is a RISC OS UserSimonC on 27/09/06 11:36AM
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SimonC:

"believing in the wrong bit of fiction." I am assuming that you are stating this as your opinion and not solid fact?

Who cares who had an interest in who... I heard that the head of microsoft had a RISC PC & Pocketbook on his desk? what does any of it matter, religion is something that shouldn't be debated here....it is a computer forum.

 is a RISC OS Userem2ac on 27/09/06 1:18PM
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The world would be a lot better place if there was less tolerance of any and all relegions. Why is it we still allow children to be indoctrinated from an early age with patent falsehoods whos only validation is being passed down by previous generations of unquestioning drones, stemming back to theitr original cult origins based around a charismatic individual. The only difference between Scientology and mainstream relegions is a few hundred more years of exploiting the weak minded, we should be glad the organisations main aim is just to releive people of their money, rather than whiping them up in to a frenzy of hatred, intollerance and murder.

 is a RISC OS Userdruck on 27/09/06 1:37PM
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In reply to em2ac: since Archive has articles about religion, Archive is a RISC OS magazine and these are RISC OS forums, the debate is fundamentally appropriate.

 is a RISC OS Userarenaman on 27/09/06 1:50PM
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em2ac: Only opinion in that you can't prove a negative. You can't prove that all the stories about Robin Hood aren't true either, but there's no reason to believe that they are. The onus on fact is for the claimers to show that it is, not the other way around.

arenaman: The discussion about religion in Archive is relevent, the general one I seem to have engaged in isn't, but the point of comments automatically going in to the forum comments is that things have usually gone off-topic by this stage.

 is a RISC OS UserSimonC on 27/09/06 2:43PM
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druck : well said :-)

 is a RISC OS UserNodoid on 27/09/06 6:43PM
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arenaman:

Archive is still going. Drobe has a monthly column in it starting from the next issue.

 is a RISC OS Userdiomus on 27/09/06 6:52PM
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Simon C- why? Because it's deliberately offensive. Try extending the basic courtesy to religious people that they on the whole extend to you. Not hard to work that out.

Druck -

"The world would be a lot better place if there was less tolerance of any and all relegions. "

You're sounding conspicuously ignorant now. What on earth do you think atheism and communism did?

"Why is it we still allow children to be indoctrinated from an early age with patent falsehoods "

Never my experience and not the CofE's practise.

"whos only validation is being passed down by previous generations of unquestioning drones, stemming back to theitr original cult origins based around a charismatic individual. "

If you want to blind yourself to the power of faith that's your choice but clearly you're tragically wrong with your "validation" argument.

"The only difference between Scientology and mainstream relegions is a few hundred more years of exploiting the weak minded, we should be glad the organisations main aim is just to releive people of their money, rather than whiping them up in to a frenzy of hatred, intollerance and murder. "

The only frenzy here has started to emerge from Simon C.

Paul - one day I'd like to hear Steve T's side of the story.

 is a RISC OS UserAW on 27/09/06 7:21PM
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Chris:

What form is the Drobe column going to take? (Although, I don't suppose it's long until we find out now!)

 is a RISC OS UserVinceH on 27/09/06 8:24PM
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If you've not yet felt the power of the almighty flying spagetti monster, then your time on earth has been wasted.

I've been touched by his noodly apendage.

What has this to do with RISC OS? Nothing. Perhaps it'll end up in Archive.

 is a RISC OS Userflibble on 27/09/06 8:51PM
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Andrew : The scientologists spin remix (it was all his fault - based on the fraud they follows edict of never apologise, always attack) or the real version (based on the years of friendship we had and I really wish we could have again)?

The real version, you've got. The $cn version, no idea.

 is a RISC OS UserNodoid on 27/09/06 8:54PM
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vinceh:

Archive editor Paul Beverley said he couldn't keep up with Drobe's pace of articles (which I know has been off the boil recently due to full time work commitments) and the comments posted on the site. So he asked if I'd put together a monthly summary of drobe.co.uk as a column. It's not drobe.co.uk verbatim, it's a round up of the best comments and the hottest news.

People who Archive are less likely to visit Drobe every day, and might only pop in once a week or month or so, so the column should be interesting. And it's generated by you all :) (No, I'm not getting paid for it)

If you read the Metro newspaper and see the Friday Holy Moly column, which is a sort of round up of holymoly.co.uk, it's similiar to that.

Chris.

 is a RISC OS Userdiomus on 27/09/06 8:58PM
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Chris:

Sounds like a bit like the archive online/offline column, then - but where the subjects covered in that start with a query and then includes a summary of the comments made in reply, the Drobe column will start with some of the articles and summarise the best/most interesting of the comments?

As a regular reader of both Archive and Drobe, it sounds like it'll be an interesting column to read because it'll be refresher of the news we've already read, while reducing the noise to signal ratio of the comments.

 is a RISC OS UserVinceH on 27/09/06 10:40PM
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AW: I don't call religious people idiots to their face. I don't say anything unless it comes up as a topic in a conversation or debate, and then I'm not going to pretend to have views that I don't have, although I admit that I don't have a great deal of tolerance for nonsense. There is absolutely NO sensible reason for religion to be treated any differently from any other opinion whatsoever. If people not sharing your views and thinking they don't make any sense ("your" in the general, not you personally) is offensive then tough. At the very least anyone religious should be quite prepared to get laughed at for saying it is fact and acting accordingly (instead of saying they personally believe it is fact, which is something else altogether).

I totally fail to see your point about atheism, and quite what communism has to do with anything on here is completely beyond me.

 is a RISC OS UserSimonC on 28/09/06 00:55AM
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'The world would be a lot better place if there was less tolerance of any and all religions.' In reply to Druck, 'Not well said! As a Christian, I agree that there is bad religion as well as good religion. I know that Drobe should be dealing with RISC OS matters rather than religion, but the intolerance of some of you out there shows just how small-minded and petty you really are. You have allowed yoiurselves to be brainwashed with atheism and you do not in not have an open mind. Paul Beverley has had the guts to stand up and be counted, though I agree that some may feel that a computer magazine is not the place to push one's religious beliefs.

Look at the mess that Britain is in now that it has forsaken its Christian heritage.

 is a RISC OS UserAFT on 28/09/06 09:21AM
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Sorry for a spelling mistake and a couple of words not delated. Perhaps it reveals the indignation I felt in my response.

 is a RISC OS UserAFT on 28/09/06 09:25AM
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Brainwashed by atheism? Hardly. Atheism is usually a result of taking a look around you and deciding what makes sense. Being religious is accepting what you're told unquestioningly. Religious people tend to be very closed-minded; atheists aren't. I see people getting very upset here when questions are raised about their beliefs, and belief and faith are nothing more than unsubstantiated acceptance of an idea. That, in my opinion, is closed minded. To just accept without questioning is very, very wrong, and leads to all sorts of illogical and sometimes immoral behaviour.

Look at the mess Britain was in when it was a very Christian country. Do you want to go back to Victorian or earlier standards of living and social justice?

Perhaps all of the posts discussing just this should be moved to the off-topic section?

 is a RISC OS UserSimonC on 28/09/06 10:02AM
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In answer to Simon C. — You are quite wrong in saying that 'being religious is accepting what you are told unquestioningly.' I grant you that there are gullible people who fit this category, many of whom are not religious. I have been a Christian for 56 years and have read anti-Christian books and others religions. Making sweeping statements does not enhance your argument. What upset me, is the sheer rudeness and dismissiveness of some who have attacked Christians in these posts. I agree, however, that this is 'off-topic' and I plead for those of you who are so intolerant to moderate your bitter comments.

 is a RISC OS UserAFT on 28/09/06 12:31AM
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I think there is considerable arrogance in saying that something can't be of any importance because I don't understand it, or haven't experieinced it. Especially when there are those who clearly see it as something very important. Some people feel strongly enough about their religious beliefs that they are prepared to die rather than deny them. Would you do that for a mere opinion, or for example, a political party. Have you ever been curious about why they would voluntarily do that? ISTM that atheists have shut a whole realm of human experience and a whole area of human existence out of their lives. Coming back closer to topic, it is like those people who dismiss RISC OS as rubbish despite having never used it, simply because those who do use it are a minority. Since most of those who do use it in preference to the alternatives must have their reasons, dismissing it out of hand without trying it should not be an option.

 is a RISC OS Usermrtd on 28/09/06 1:12PM
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Bitter, rude comments? No, I'm just stating my view on the subject, and why I don't agree with religion. If I were to say otherwise I would be misrepresenting my own view, yet I get personally directed retorts to it. That is rude and intolerant. It is one thing to attack and attempt to rubbish my opinion, quite another to say that I shouldn't be allowed to express it, which is what the pro-religion posts appear to be doing. I am not intolerant in that I do not think anyone should be prevented from being religious, but why should I not have a dismissive view of it? Just about everyone is scornful of anything they see as ridiculous. There should be no exceptions made for the treatment of religious beliefs over any other beliefs, and I'm sorry that some people appear to have a problem with that.

I don't see any specific attacking of Christians, just religion in general. Christianity is only being used as an example because it's the religion that most people here will be the most familiar with. How am I wrong in saying that being religious is accepting what you're told? There is no other means of finding out about it, and no evidence that can be independently discovered to support that information. If you do question religion then it usually seems to come down to a question of faith, and I don't see what faith can mean except accepting without evidence. If there was evidence there wouldn't be any need for faith.

I see accusations of intolerance to my points as simply side-stepping them.

 is a RISC OS UserSimonC on 28/09/06 1:18PM
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mrtd: "I think there is considerable arrogance in saying that something can't be of any importance because I don't understand it, or haven't experieinced it. "

Who has said that? I don't dismiss things because I don't understand them. Perhaps I might mistakenly if I misunderstood them. That argument is a classic dismissal in pro vs. anti religious debate. It says "If you don't agree then you don't have a right to an opinion," which is considerably more arrogant. I've never tried hard drugs either.

People DO sacrifice themselves for non-religious reasons, although admittedly not as often. Look what happened to Emily Pankhurst. There are people who will adamantly stand up for whatever they thing is good and right, and religion often gets it there because it gives a simple and unambiguous answer to those questions often with some twisting to make it fit an agenda). It does not make it right or real - it cannot do, if people from conflicting religions can feel the same way.

What many people want is certainty and simple answers, which is why I think religion has the hold it has, or at least is the hook.

 is a RISC OS UserSimonC on 28/09/06 1:27PM
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Sorry for third post in a row.

If anyone wants to reply to me, instead of just giving up in disgust at what I have to say, I've created a topic in the "Off topic / derogatory rants" section of the forums, because it's probably got to the stage where it'll be annoying enough in general chitchat, let alone here.

 is a RISC OS UserSimonC on 28/09/06 3:31PM
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Simon, "If you don't agree then you don't have a right to an opinion,"

No, you misunderstand, I am not saying that at all. Do you think your doctor is saying that when he expresses his opinions about his diagnosis? We accept his opinion simply becuse he has the training and experience in the field of medicine that presumably you and I lack.

Of course you are free to disagree with what he says, but I would take his opinion rather that that od someone with no medical training or experience.

It is the same with God. If you have never experienced His presence, or at least not knowingly, you might know less about Him than somebody who has had that experience. Of course you are free to disregard his opinion, but that doesn't make it any less valid. Since he had the experience and you didn't, you cannot prove him wrong. So you should at least respect that, even if you don't agree with his interpretation of it.

 is a RISC OS Usermrtd on 28/09/06 5:34PM
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Simon C

"I don't call religious people idiots to their face." You're doing the next best thing online.

"I don't say anything unless it comes up as a topic in a conversation or debate, and then I'm not going to pretend to have views that I don't have, although I admit that I don't have a great deal of tolerance for nonsense. There is absolutely NO sensible reason for religion to be treated any differently from any other opinion whatsoever."

Religion isn't always an "opinion" though if at all.

" If people not sharing your views and thinking they don't make any sense ("your" in the general, not you personally ) is offensive then tough. At the very least anyone religious should be quite prepared to get laughed at for saying it is fact and acting accordingly ( instead of saying they personally believe it is fact, which is something else altogether ). " I don't see that here, just you saying you won't even *demonstrate* respect for religion.

"I totally fail to see your point about atheism, and quite what communism has to do with anything on here is completely beyond me. "

Well that's got absolutely nothing to do with a reply to you has it? So please don't co-opt it into our particular discussion.

 is a RISC OS UserAW on 28/09/06 11:44PM
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Simon C-

"Brainwashed by atheism? Hardly. Atheism is usually a result of taking a look around you and deciding what makes sense."

It's a matter of faith no less than Christianity.

"Being religious is accepting what you're told unquestioningly" Well you're closed minded as anybody as I've already stated that was never my experience and I've questioned to the limits of what I'm able and science is simply inadequate for philosophical debate and for daily living. Maybe you are satisfied with your life. If not, shutting yourself off from spiritual options you may later want to take but feel obliged not to because of pride is unwise.

". Religious people tend to be very closed-minded; atheists aren't. I see people getting very upset here when questions are raised about their beliefs, and belief and faith are nothing more than unsubstantiated acceptance of an idea."

What the heck do you call atheism? Did somebody say the word "arrogance"?

" That, in my opinion, is closed minded. To just accept without questioning is very, very wrong, and leads to all sorts of illogical and sometimes immoral behaviour. "

How do you know how much questioning people have done? What is the basis of your assumption?

"Look at the mess Britain was in when it was a very Christian country."

Newsflash Simon -IT STILL IS. The vast majority pledge allegiance to Christian values, the Church is established, Britain is *not* secular and through the work of the Alpha course and groups like Soul Surivor Christianity is alive and reaching massive audiences. You're missing the boat.

" Do you want to go back to Victorian or earlier standards of living and social justice? "

This is classic mis-representation and an insult to a magnificent era in British era. The Victorian era was undoubedly in my opinion *the* most progressive era this country has ever seen - socially, technologically and morally. Compare that to the lazy reactionary assumptions and technological deferrence or stagnation of modern Britain. We have so much to learn from then in terms of the aspirations and more.

"Perhaps all of the posts discussing just this should be moved to the off-topic section? "

 is a RISC OS UserAW on 28/09/06 11:54PM
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Andrew Weston: Druck - "The world would be a lot better place if there was less tolerance of any and all religions. "

"You're sounding conspicuously ignorant now. What on earth do you think atheism and communism did?"

Off to a good start there; personal insult, deliberate misinterpretation, and incorrect tense.

"If you want to blind yourself to the power of faith that's your choice but clearly you're tragically wrong with your 'validation' argument."

I'm well aware of the power of faith, particularly faith as in unquestioning belief in groundless superstitions. Are you going to offer any argument as to why I'm wrong, or is that a just a matter of faith too?

Alec Taylor: "You have allowed yoiurselves to be brainwashed with atheism and you do not in not have an open mind."

That really is a classic, did you come up with it yourself? As I’d like to give you full credit everytime people are wetting themselves laughing.

 is a RISC OS Userdruck on 02/10/06 09:37AM
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Druck -

"The world would be a lot better place if there was less tolerance of any and all religions. "

"You're sounding conspicuously ignorant now. What on earth do you think atheism and communism did?"

"Off to a good start there; personal insult, deliberate misinterpretation, and incorrect tense. "

Firstly, it is a direct quote and it sounds to me rash and ignorant. That is not an insult so let's not misinterpret the nature of this dialogue. How asking for "less tolerance of any and all religions" being anything other than downright irresponsible is "misinterpretation" takes some convoluted logic as far as I can see.

You're almost right about incorrect tense except it's not tense I meant "what on earth do you think *Nazism* and communism did?"

"I'm well aware of the power of faith, particularly faith as in unquestioning belief in groundless superstitions. Are you going to offer any argument as to why I'm wrong, or is that a just a matter of faith too? "

About your glib in-a-nutshell generalisation about faith?:

"whos only validation is being passed down by previous generations of unquestioning drones"

A few arguments:

1. *That* is insulting 2. Faith has changed countless people's lives 3. People with faith are not "drones". The only drones are those who erect convenient walls around their existence to avoid uncomfortable questions, say, of the "just superstition, all drones" type. 4. You're insulting a vast array of intelligences of equal inherent worth representative entirely of the range of human capability with the "drone" remark.

 is a RISC OS UserAW on 02/10/06 7:20PM
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I'm not insulting any intelligence, as by definition belief is the suspension of intelligence and logical reasoning. There's plenty of illogical reasoning going on though, as you attempt to put all atheists on the same moral standing as both Nazi’s and communists, which is a nice touch. If you aren't a drone, you'll have to prove you can think for yourself, and do a lot better than that.

 is a RISC OS Userdruck on 03/10/06 09:25AM
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AW;

Replied here: [link]

 is a RISC OS Usermikejs on 03/10/06 1:31PM
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Druck - What I'm saying - and I thought this was clear myself - is that Nazism and Communism were prime examples of "less tolerance". In any case, I see the result of your intolerance towards those you don't even know: blind condescension and contempt.

I'm not "proving" anythning to you. Aside from you demonstrating almost zil thought on the matter besides dismissive quips your whole attitude reeks of "can't be bothered". If and when you feel the need to look into Christianity it's there. Until that point, don't waste your own time.

 is a RISC OS UserAW on 03/10/06 7:15PM
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If the Scientologists has bought RISC OS there would have been millions of sales and the RISC OS market would be a whole different place, although whether non-scientologists would have stayed with RISC OS...

 is a RISC OS UserCheatWarrior on 03/10/06 7:37PM
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