ROL ship second Select 4 release | Drobe.co.uk archives

ROL ship second Select 4 release

Published: 30th Apr 2007, 22:15:53 | Permalink | Printable

CDs in the post, downloads for the impatient

RISCOS Ltd today said it is shipping copies of Select 4 issue 2 to its subscribers. The latest release is also available online as a download to punters who renewed their subs after January 1, 2006.

The OS is distributed over the Internet in a 15M zip archive, or as a 63M ISO image, for users who can't wait to receive their CDs in the post over the coming week. Select 4 RISC OS 6 was previously available as a preview for people to test-drive after the Select subscription scheme was hit by several months of delays and set backs.

According to ROL, issue 2 of Select 4 includes "full printing support", new Viewfinder drivers, a hardware-accelerated version of the classic RiscPC Meteors game, a new user guide, a new tool to locate problems within !Boot sequences, an updated !Chars app, a new Pinboard configuration tool and RISC OS 6-themed backdrop set, a new 'try screen mode' button for the Display Manager, a new command to detect monitors connected to a Viewfinder card, five new fonts, and an executable checking utility.

This latest OS release from RISCOS Ltd is said to work on A7000 and RiscPC-class machines, and VirtualAcorn emulators published by ROL director Aaron Timbrell. It will not work on Microdigital Omega and Micos, RiscStations, Iyonixes and A9homes.

ROL boss Paul Middleton said: "Select 4 and its underlying RISC OS Six technology represents over 10 man years' of development which has taken RISC OS 4 from its 26bit version to its new fully 32bit neutral source version."

Links

Select 4 RISC OS 6 website - some users have reported problems opening the ROL zip files because they have invalid headers

Previous: Another Select feature module for RISC OS 5
Next: Select 4i2 apps will run on A9home

Discussion

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While the conversion to 32 bit-safe code is a worthy feature, we're still left with only a 26 bit one available. One assumes Advantage 6 will make a version of Select 4 available for their customers later.

For users of RiscPCs, there doesn't actually appear to be all that much new here, certainly from a user-facing perspective. Can we look forward to one of Drobe's famed comparison articles detailing what's actually different that'll make users' lives easier?

rjek on 30/4/07 10:42PM
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With such a massive overhaul of the RISC OS sources, has there been optimisations, I wonder, that might lead to noticable performance increases?

fylfot on 30/4/07 10:49PM
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Apparently there have been increases in some areas but some of the increases of RO4 have been negated by their functions being moved out of the Kernal.

sa110 on 30/4/07 10:55PM
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Select 4 plus Issue 2 = RISC OS Six

Is this how the numbering is working now?

(confused)

spanners on 30/4/07 11:32PM
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In reply to spanners

Read the FAQ on the RISC OS web site which explains that RISC OS 6 is the new base operating system for all future versions. Select are the softload updates to that operating system.

[link]

bluenose on 1/5/07 7:06AM
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Has anyone actually got it to work? I downloaded it last night, and again this morning (in case anything had been fixed overnight) but the archive(s) are still corrupt, so you don't get a full set of data.

pv on 1/5/07 8:58AM
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Its a bit premature to congratulate ROL as no one has managed to get the download to work yet, but it is a good sign. Lets just hope this is the first step on the road to recovery, leading to sustained development and value for Select customers. Then we can return to the issue of support for the Iyonix.

druck on 1/5/07 9:12AM
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If ROL get this out and it appears stable I will almost certainly renew my subscription (funds permitting). I'm quite impressed with how they appear to have written a ViewFinder driver from scratch which will be better integrated into RISC OS. I wonder how optimised this is because John Kortink refused to open source his driver on the basis that it was commercially valuable and represented much development time. It would be nicer to think that they had licensed John's driver, but who knows?

If this turns out to be what it appears to be, then well done ROL. But my god, it's been a hell of time coming, hasn't it? Only 3 more years until the A9home release.

fylfot on 1/5/07 9:32AM
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How many Wakefields before ROL finish the version of RISC OS 6 for the A9 home?

CKH2 on 1/5/07 9:38AM
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The first step following the publication of the Programmer's Reference Manuals and User Guide/tutorials? Both are necessary to assist RO6 on the road to recovery and the three together need programmers producing more (new/updated) software and users buying (hardware/OS/software). If there is a road to recovery it needs everyone taking that road.

jc on 1/5/07 9:38AM
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In reply to jc: -

There will be no "road to recovery" whilst RO6 does not work on the Iyonix. Frustrated programers are even reiniventing the wheel for RO5 because ROL has sofar not released a single thing fo it.

If ROL are unable to do many of the updates that require specific information from CTL in order to implement, they should concentrate on other extra features that do not require such knowledge from CTL. This could as least be release as some sort of Plus Pack for RO5.

sa110 on 1/5/07 9:47AM
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sa110: If you're referring to SelectEmu; it came about because I need abort trapping _now_ and it made sense to make it use the official API. It's not because ROL haven't released anything for the Iyonix. As it happens, much of the code for the AbortTrap implementation in SelectEmu was written *years* ago -- I've just not had the time to finish it.

jmb on 1/5/07 9:53AM
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John Cartmell is in the luxurious position of knowing quite a lot more than 99% of the RISC OS market. In JC's position it's probably all to easy to get excited about what ROL/Advantage 6 are doing behind the scenes. For JC, with this info to hand, there is an obvious future for RISC OS being led by some very capable developers. The problem is, very few people feel the same way as John. Most people don't have a clue what's going on. There's no strong leadership; there's no leadership. There's very poor communication and generally only rumours from people like John.

This latest development is excellent news, but the long period of relative silence will no doubt have caused a lot of damage. The sad truth is that even the most dedicated RISC OS users have absolutely no confidence in ROL's ability to provide a future for the platform. It seems that this comes down mainly to one thing, and that's communication. Whilst spending money on updating a web site may detract from what can be spent on OS development, it is ABSOLUTELY essential.

Why do we have so much confidence in ArtWorks development? Because there is a friendly, regularly updated web site which documents development in a non-technical manner. Martin's leadship skills are excellent. We pop on his web site and we know exactly what he's done over the last few years and we know what he's doing now and what's coming in the future. Then, believe it or not, he releases a product. Why do we have confidence in Netsurf? For exactly the same reasons.

ROL could be in such a powerful position if it got a few of the basics rights. Clear and concise web site. Communication, Etc., rather than death by a thousand whispers.

fylfot on 1/5/07 10:04AM
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To use an analogy. John Cartmell reminds me of a politician who's spent too much time in Westminister. He's lost track of what ordinary people think and require. He believes that everyone watches Prime Minister's questions when they don't - they don't even care.

This isn't an attack on JC. I think he's doing a great job with Qercus (finally), but more of a wake up call to those who believe they know best despite the droves leaving the platform with no idea of what's going on.

fylfot on 1/5/07 10:11AM
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Typical of the ROL website: There is no online-shop to purchase the new version quickly and easily without having to wait for a human being to process the order and even the links to the PDF and Draw format order forms on [link] are broken.

I mean, why can't they simply install a decent content management system like Joomla to keep their website up to date and an online shop that integrates with it, like VirtueMart. They are both free and really easy to install.

JGZimmerle on 1/5/07 10:16AM
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Rather than saying "why can't they do blah blah blah with blah blah blah" how about DOING it, and then saying "here it is, if you want, link to it. That kind of thing would probably be a lot more helpful in the long run. Most of us don't have time to deal with stuff that isn't 100% relevant to the work we're doing right now, I'm afraid. And no, that stuff doesn't result in more sales. I experimented along those lines two months ago, and sales actually went down!

arawnsley on 1/5/07 10:27AM
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arawnsley: so is it the customers job to actually do ROL's work for them now?

I guess I may have missed somthing pertinant to the statement as I can't quite belive you meant that a potential customer should fix ROL's website.

???puzzled???

John

mrmac on 1/5/07 10:32AM
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arawnsley:"no, that stuff [a good website?] doesn't result in more sales" Well, there's a thread on usenet now about someone who bought Messenger from you but didn't know he needed DialUp too. There's a lost sale due to a poorly designed (and still reprehensibly insecure) website

adamr on 1/5/07 11:07AM
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arawnsley: Well, I would happily put a CMS and online shop in place for RISC OS Ltd, if they would pay me for it, like I would pay them for making new versions of RISC OS. Or they could just give me a 10-year free subscription to the Select sheme, wich would work out at roughly the same.

BTW, does anyone know if Select4i2 finally supports VRPC's 8MB VRAM?

JGZimmerle on 1/5/07 11:13AM
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sa110: Even though you're right about RO5 we need to be on that road anyway. If the problem is that Iyonix are causing the delay then it's up to ROL to just get on with what they can and show what's causing the hold-up.

fylfot: You are repeating what I said 7/8 years ago. Although the problem of advertising is still there it's a problem that needs the support of us all. I'll continue to chivvy ROL - and do my bit - but everyone needs to sell RISC OS for any of us to get anywhere on that road. As for leadership - that has been made near impossible by some of the vicious statements that are made on Usenet. The only people who avoid them are those who keep their heads down. We certainly need to get all in-fighting behind us. In the past I've not wanted to promote RISC OS because of what people would see if they took a look at what RISC OS was about. I cannot be alone with that view - and that's up to all of us. I want to promote the A9home, Iyonix, Virtual Acorn, and RO6 for older, current, and future machines. That's looking a short way into the future but the road is clearly marked out. As Ian recognises it's a road that I've seen for some years and getting to where we are now has been delayed by that in-fighting. My optimism has been much dented - but if we do all get behind a future for all RISC OS developers then (now I'm allowed) I'll bring everyone up to date with that 'vision'.

jc on 1/5/07 11:27AM
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arawnsley:

While I agree that a CMS and online shop won't necessarily lead to an increase in sales, I'm a little surprised that your experimentation led to a decrease. Can you be certain, as your comment seems to suggest, that your decrease in sales was connected to your experimenting with them? I'd be doubtful.

A CMS isn't necessary to make a site more presentable or user friendly - this can be managed without one - but it does help when the site becomes large and unweildy, and can help prevent it becoming a sprawling unmaintainable mess; at which point it can lose some user friendliness because it becomes hard to navigate or find things. This, I think, is the problem with RISCOS Ltd's website.

To be brutally honest, I think the same can be said for yours (sorry!). It's inconsistent, both in look and feel on different pages, and in navigation methods - and indeed in the actual location of pages, given that AFAICS only the frameset is loaded via the domain name, and all the pages under that from arcsvs.demon.co.uk

For instance, I pop along now to [link] and I get your home page. (This uses frames, as I said above, so if I found something via Google, I may end up with one of your frames as my full browser window with an arcsvs.demon.co.uk address) and I have a basic navigation frame down the left, and a main one taking up most of the window.

In that main window, I click on "Internet Suite" - this replaces the main frame with one about your DialUp4. Fair enough. If I click "Order now" this then puts [link] in the main frame, with a different coloured version of the same texture, which to my eye looks a bit odd, but never mind.

Going back to the main frame, I can click on NetFetch3; this behaves the same way, loading the relevant arsvcs.demon.co.uk page into the main frame - though with a completely different texture, which looks even more odd than the different coloured version of the same one.

Back to the main frame, and the WebsterXL link opens a replaces the frameset with a different one. Different colour scheme, now showing arscvs in the URL bar, etc.

Back again. Messenger Pro 4; New window, plain white background, etc.

Back again, and click on "Grape Vine" under internet tools. This opens a new window and a completely different colour scheme. The order button on that page takes me to [link] - the same as filled the frame above after clicking "Order now" for the internet suite, but now it's in its own window, and other than the title bar and copyright footer, there is little there to identify the page as yours.

Okay, "rcomp" appears in the URL, but as a subdirectory of arcsvs.demon.co.uk - for all I know, I could be on a phishing site, trying to rip off your customers. (Not least because the ordering page doesn't appear to be secure.)

Go back to the main framed window again, and click on Siteseer. This time the page is opened in the frame.

And so on. And so forth.

I would suggest the following things:

1. Use the domain properly, and don't pick your pages up from your Demon site. It just looks that much more professional if all the pages are loaded from rcomp.co.uk

2. Make the pages consistent, and bearing in mind that framed pages might end up opened in their own right (eg via searches, or from Adjust clicking) put a standard header/footer section on them which identifies them as yours. (Consider using server side includes for this, or if they're unavailable to you, you can download a free copy of the 26 bit version of WebChange

which allows you to achieve a similar effect)

3. While I don't object to the use of frames per se, consider the flaws they present - if you must use them, at least use them correctly and consistently.

4. Secure that ordering page!

Again, sorry for pointing all this out, but somewhere down the line it has to be said by someone!

VinceH on 1/5/07 12:33PM
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jc:

It would be a great deal easier to "sell RISC OS" if those, like myself, who are already RISC OS users knew what was going on. You see, my main concern isn't trying to "sell RISC OS" but retaining the small number of users who are left. Simply holding users at ransom isn't going to slow down the fall-out: "if you don't spend money, we won't continue producing stuff" is what we're very often told. Such statements are ridiculous. It's incredibly easy to sell a product to a RISC OS user; we're such a willing and loyal bunch. There are users still out there who will buy a product simply to support RISC OS, even if they've no use for the product themselves. When I was selling WebWonder at Wakefield a couple of years back, a pensioner offered to buy a copy but refused to take the CD and manual: "I've got no use for this product, nor for this money, but you seem like a good cause" roughly resemble her words. It was quite some time before I talked her out of it.

The "vicious statements that are made on Usenet" are not reasons for ROL to abandon good communication with its loyal market. The noise is from a few individuals: and who can complain them after how they're treated? They're probably the sain ones, the ones with a smaller disposable income. ;-)

A clear plan and direction, good communication, good web site. That's all we're asking for. We know the model works (ArtWorks, TechWriter, Netsurf - where are the complaints for these products?).

fylfot on 1/5/07 12:42PM
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ROL releasing something (even with the slight website snafu) is still good news.

At last they're concentrating on their paying customers (always a good move IMHO).

As to other issues SA110 wrote>"If ROL are unable to do many of the updates that require specific information from CTL in order to implement, they should concentrate on other extra features that do not require such knowledge from CTL."

What specific information? The source to RO5 will be open, the API is documented, the machine has a published Technical Reference Manual and all the components have datasheets available - what more is there ?????

For Iyonix I suspect a better course is continued development of RO5 - with a bit of wheel reinvention where required ;-)

AMS on 1/5/07 1:20PM
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Well, it certainly is good news ROL are releasing something new again, although it seems a lot of people don't really care about Select anymore. Which is depressing, but that's the predicament ROL have created for themselves.

The "if you don't spend money, we won't continue producing stuff" line fylfot mentioned is something I've heard PM say and it indeed is ridiculous considering he's trying to sell a product which would add features, stability and generally improve the RO experience. The guy just doesn't strike me as enthusiastic about his main product, he doesn't seem really interested in Select itself, but rather to just make money. His presentations seem particularly dull, delivered with a monotonous tone of voice. There's even a typo in the official press release of Select 4i2, which indicates to me he either didn't use a spell checker or proof-read.

Although ROL are slowly improving on their communication, they really need to get their website in order, like some other RO companies should. There are so many potentially great things to show on riscos.com - manuals, screenshots, tutorials, RO app hall of fame, end-user stuff, you name it! If ROL want to sell, they've got to use all tools at their disposal, get behind their product in the most enthusiastic way possible. Dry tech specs alone won't do that.

hEgelia on 1/5/07 2:13PM
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In reply to hEgelia:

You wrote "The guy just doesn't strike me as enthusiastic about his main product, he doesn't seem really interested in Select itself, but rather to just make money. His presentations seem particularly dull, delivered with a monotonous tone of voice."

I entirely agree. I have always found his presentations to be on the boring side. Saying that, I can't say I have ever been driven to excitement by any of Jack Lillingston's presentations either. Wouldn't it be great if the main players in the RISC OS world could get together to fund a sales and marketing position. Even if it was part time. Having someone tasked with promoting the platform is better than no one at all. I'm sure they can't do a worse job than what is currently being done.

sa110 on 1/5/07 3:11PM
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"although it seems a lot of people don't really care about Select anymore"

I think people do still care about Select, hence some of the heated discussions. Select is streets ahead of RISC OS 5 in terms of it feeling like a polished operating system. I know which I prefer to use, anyhow. I think Iyonix users would still very much welcome a version of Select, but they've just probably given up hope.

Anyway, here's to hoping this new release creates new impetus and momentum!

fylfot on 1/5/07 3:15PM
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I have not followed Select development too closely after my subscription ended (I wanted to resubscribe once the IYONIX is supported - still waiting for that...), so correct me if I'm wrong.

In 2002, we got Select 1 with major new features like DHCP, Joliet-capable CDFS and Multi-user boot. Also in 2002 (followed by a bug-fix release in 2003), Select 2 was released with major new features like CMYK sprites, new !Paint, the ImageFileRenderer/Converter system and mouse wheel support. In 2003 (followed by a bug fix release in 2004), Select 3 was released with major new features like Cut&Paste for writable icons, alpha-channel sprites, the thumbnailing filer and round buttons.

And now, in 2007, the major new feature that is announced is...multimedia keyboard support? Obviously the 32bitting and hardware abstraction work was time-consuming, but after all, the majority of paying users does not gain much from it (and Mico/RiscStation/Omega-owning subscribers have gained an incompatible new version from it), and it has been said that the work was being paid by Ad6 for the A9home. So what has been paid by the subscribers between 2004 and 2007? Or was there a subscription extension that I have not heard of?

Hopefully the new release signals a "new beginning" for RISCOS Ltd. and their customers.

hubersn on 1/5/07 3:42PM
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I stopped subscribing to ROL schemes when they stopped producing something that I needed. IE nothing. That may sound harsh but that is the fact of the matter. I felt I wasted my dosh.

I'm now a firm believer of "if they build it they will come" (yea I know a bad film). If they dont have the finance then tuff. It is only a computer after all. Not something I want to chuck hundeds of pounds away on? If I want to do that there are good places like the MS society, guide dogs for the blind etc. DUH And before anyone says they couldn't do it without a regular subscription. Well SkyOS and Amiga spring to mind.

And before I get slated. I know of lots of ways in which the platform could be advertised; but that is another story.

Cheers Bob; no doubt totally inacurate but still MHO

nijinsky on 1/5/07 5:31PM
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druck: "... Then we can return to the issue of support for the Iyonix." Thanks for throwing in something to laugh :-)

hzn on 2/5/07 5:41AM
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JGzimmerle: "Typical of the ROL website ..." - Well so there is a company offering a full OS but incapable of even getting their website to work - not sure I'd trust that one to be capable to supply a working OS in the first place. - Needing interaction with a human being for online orders for a download sale like for ROL or VA (registration) was ok several years ago but it nowadays is rediculous and more often than not results in me not buying. - Sorry to disagree arawnsley, but I agree that for a company offering someting (and since now ROL does offer something again) they should at least manage to keep some basic working website online (or if they are not capable have it done by others).

hzn on 2/5/07 5:41AM
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flyflot: "I think Iyonix users would still very much welcome a version of Select, but they've just probably given up hope." No, I don't think the IYONIX users gave up but are simply more realistic to not expect anything to happen by from ROL for IYONIX...

hzn on 02/05/07 05:42AM
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hubersn: You missed a feature - the first one on the list mailed by PM@ROL: "Full printing support" - well how did them poor Select users print until now ;-)

Perhaps you sould supply some CDVDBurn version which doesn't burn CD and then announce a new version which can burn CD.

hzn on 02/05/07 05:42AM
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Their announcement says:

"This is just the first release of Select4 and there will be further releases as we finaliseitems that are suitable for A9Home and Iyonix users, as well as RiscPC and Virtual Acorn users."

so maybe Iyonix users will see something. I hope so....

markee174 on 02/05/07 09:20AM
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markee174: Where did you see "This is just the first release of Select4 and there will be further releases as we finalise items that are suitable for A9Home and Iyonix users, as well as RiscPC and Virtual Acorn users."

hzn on 02/05/07 4:32PM
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hzn: I saw that as well, but irritatingly I can't find it.

I've been looking at the RO6/Select4i2 documentation. Has anybody actually managed to find the ImageFile_Convert documentation? There are a numbefr of links, but they all go to a 404 page!

Dave

DS1 on 02/05/07 5:42PM
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hzn:

It was on the anounce usernet group posted yesterday or today - I picked it up at 9am this morning or therabouts.

markee174 on 02/05/07 8:10PM
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How some information on features, not just the changes list, but something that's not in 3i4 you've actually noticed and found useful.

druck on 03/05/07 08:48AM
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druck: RTFM?

User Guide, Tutorials, PRM - and all very friendly.

jc on 03/05/07 10:32AM
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Cartmell: Try reading and understanding the comment before replying.

As I said, I'm not interested in the change lists, but thing people have actually noticed and found useful.

druck on 03/05/07 12:54AM
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druck: "ry reading and understanding the comment before replying."

I could be wrong but I assumed that what John Cartmell was saying was that people had found the User Guide, Tutorials and PRM useful, which *was* a valid answer.

apdl on 03/05/07 1:58PM
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David Holden: no, he's telling me to read a change list, where as I'm asking people who've actually used Select 4i2 to give their impression. Its a simple question, which anyone other than John Cartmell should be quite capable of answering unaided.

druck on 03/05/07 2:42PM
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A critcism of earlier versions of Select, that I'd voiced a few times, was that features were hidden because of the lack of manuals. The release of Manuals, Tutorials, and PRMs, and all available as part of the RO6 package, means that features that were actually included in Select 3 may now be found and used for the first time.

To answer your question without reference to those friendly manuals, I'm concentrating on Draw and Paint and finding the way the two now interact to be a great extension of the RISC OS way of working. It takes so much longer to explain than to do though - so just experiment, starting with dropping a Draw file into Paint ...

...and then wonder if it works with ArtWorks files.

jc on 03/05/07 2:48PM
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Why do that have a VOIP system that requires you to have a non-RISC OS computer to use? They have Skype rather than a standard SIP account that can be used with a simple £30 box that plugs into your router and is configured via a browser (eg RISC OS Firefox).

jess on 03/05/07 6:40PM
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Ok so all JC has managed to come up with is waffle about being able to import a draw file in to !Paint which you could already do in the Select 3i4 version of !Paint, so not a new feature. Plus anyone that's in anyway interested in graphics has been able to import both draw files and artworks directly in to Photodesk since 1994.

Now, how about we try again; would anyone that is not a complete muppet like to comment on new features in Select 4i2.

druck on 04/05/07 08:48AM
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In reply to druck:

There is the new toolbar that is part of Paint.

sa110 on 04/05/07 12:52AM
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flyflot: A while ago you wrote "I think people do still care about Select, hence some of the heated discussions. Select is streets ahead of RISC OS 5 in terms of it feeling like a polished operating system."

So you want a new SKIN for RO5 so that it looks and feels better?

Personally I can't care less about the looks (round buttons, more colours for icons, option to put the title bar at the bottom of a window etc.). What I want is simply functionality - period.

hzn on 04/05/07 5:55PM
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nijinsky:

"I stopped subscribing to ROL schemes when they stopped producing something that I needed. IE nothing. That may sound harsh but that is the fact of the matter."

Lucky you ... quite a few users probably missed that moment :-)

hzn on 04/05/07 5:57PM
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In reply to druck and jc:

druck: "How some information on features, not just the changes list, but something that's not in 3i4 you've actually noticed and found useful."

There is something useful: 32 bit so that it runs on A9home. Apart from that perhaps multimedia keyboard support... As you can see I'm at a loss but having an IYONIX pc how should I know anyhow due to lack of concise information from the company wanting my money to be able to start working for IYONIX Select?

jc: "RTFM" I'd be glad to, where can I find it? And please remember the question: druck was not into reading some detailed changes list where things are mentioned like "removed reference to Acorn" or "moved to SVN" or "made 32 bit neutral" and the likes. Except for the latter which is ok for A9home the rest is of no use for the users! Or do you seriously expect all the people considering to get Select 4 to buy it to be able to read the manual to decide if they should buy it?

hzn on 04/05/07 6:03PM
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hzn: "There is something useful: 32 bit so that it runs on A9home"

Except that at the moment, the operating system itself doesn't.

dgs

dgs on 04/05/07 6:09PM
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In reply to markee174:

As for "This is just the first release of Select4 and there will be further releases as we finalise items that are suitable for A9Home and Iyonix users, as well as RiscPC and Virtual Acorn users."

You wrote "It was on the anounce usernet group posted yesterday or today - I picked it up at 9am this morning or therabouts."

I checked on google groups but all I found was the press release of ROL where "IYONIX" is only mentioned as not-supported alongside some other systems. A google for the text above or parts of that resulted in nil. Perhaps it was taken back or is hidden some place else.

hzn on 04/05/07 6:12PM
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hzn: "RTFM" "I'd be glad to, where can I find it? And please remember the question: druck was not into reading some detailed changes list"

Not having read something hasn't stopped druck criticising things in the past!

I don't know what is happening about the manual for non-owners - but can confirm that it's very good, as are the tutorials. I'll be publishing more information about the applications and next month druck can not read that before finding fault with it.

Cynical, Moi? ;-)

jc on 04/05/07 6:41PM
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In reply to druck,

Here is a list of changes I can see from looking at the userguide.

RO6 Paint Changes Sprite List Window with toolbar for quick access to: Save as, Export, Create new sprite, Copy to clipboard, Paste from clipboard, Switch to full info

Paint can now export: BMP, PCX, JPEG Can also load foreign format such as Draw and Artworks via the Image File Renderer Improved Choices configuration Improved Snapshop - window furniture can be removed, can capture in other bitmap formats such as ICO, BMP and PNG

Hardware Monitor detection if suitable hardware pressent

New diagnostic dump utility

Improved selection of default fonts

Pinboard background can now be graduated(simple) and graduated(HSV) Pinboard improved stacking and now filer-like clicks

Windows - improved tool ordering

sa110 on 04/05/07 11:34PM
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sa110: I must say, Paint had already become eminently useful in Select 3, with many bugs and shortcomings sorted out and very useful new functionality. The additions in Select 4 only seem to strengthen that position, now being a genuinely convenient tool for quick jobs where something like Photodesk would be excessive. The new export functions for BMP and PCX formats seem redundant, though being able to directly load Draw and ArtWorks files is absolutely useful.

The EDID Monitor detection is essential, doing away with the tedious creation of MDF files with MakeModes. Genuine progress there. I believe it's already featured in the A9home's RO 4.42, but a pity it doesn't seem to work with the RiscPC's own (VIDC20) hardware. From the - [link] - article, I don't see why it couldn't also be possible with non-ViewFinder RiscPC's? Though as it stands, does the automatic configuration also include a colour profile/calibration set-up for the connected screen?

A lot of the further Select 4 functionality seems rather basic, of which some I really quite don't see why it's there. For example, putting the title-bar at the bottom of a window? Somebody, somewhere is bound to actually be happy with it, but I can't help wondering if ROL shouldn't have spend the time implementing something else, such as new or improved Format and Verify applications? Come to think of it, wasn't there something in early Select 4 news about improved ATA harddisc support or something? And improved Keyboard shortcuts support, search-as-you-type? A quick search reveals [link] for some info about that.

hEgelia on 06/05/07 3:29PM
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Excellent news, good to see RISCOS Ltd finally get something out the door. Looking forward to a demo at the Wakefield show :-)

leeshep on 06/05/07 5:41PM
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OK, so the option to put the title bar at the bottom of windows (may we call it footer bar now? ;-)

may be a bit silly, but surely it is very useful to have the option of adjusting the tool order to match the WinXP positions for people who have to work with both systems at the same time. Maybe some more options could be added, to match other operating systems like MacOS and maybe the defaults for KDE and Gnome?

JGZimmerle on 07/05/07 04:33AM
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Oh come on, drobe, please fix this annoying bug where comment posts are lost.

I could not find any information about LBA48 (discs with more than 128GiB / 137GB) support in RISC OS 6. Does it support it?

Also, does it finally detect and use the 8MB VRAM of VRPC?

JGZimmerle on 07/05/07 05:24AM
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JGZimmerle: Re-arranging the tool-buttons was already implemented in Select 3, it's just been expanded in Select 4 to include a 'footer bar' option. Indeed, one of the options already in Select 3 was to put the window close button at the far right, like Windows. It's also possible to put the iconise button at the left of the title-bar, next to the close icon, like in Mac OS X. So both major OS's have their window-button style supported since Select 3. Ofcourse, putting the scroll-icons next to each other such as in some UNIX-like OS's is unnecessary, thanks to the superb Adjust mouse button functionality.

Like I said, besides EDID support there were some other relatively major features planned for Select 4, such as ATA-4 harddisc support (with HForm and FileCore overhauled to support the latest ATA standards and SMART features), search-as-you-type in the Filer and Keyboard control for the Filer. I wonder what happened to them, since at least the search-as-you-type stuff was shown at some shows, I believe. There also were some small buttons at the top in Filer windows. Have these things been scrapped due to lack of funds or urgency to release something to counter further loss of subscriptions? Or will these features, of which some were apparently already implemented, arrive in a later release such as Select 4i3?

By the way, I found the PDF file I linked to above much more readable than the 'official' RISC OS Six Key Features page which details the New End User features.

hEgelia on 07/05/07 12:08AM
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In reply to hEgelia:

"Have these things been scrapped due to lack of funds or urgency to release something to counter further loss of subscriptions?"

I'm not quite sure what you mean with "urgency" here and how this word can apply to ROL at all?

But perhaps they did indeed drop some things to get something to give their customers to simply reduce the risk that some more simply do not continue their subscription, and perhaps keep something up the sleeve since PM did promise that user's wont have to wait more than six or 12 months for the next release.

hzn on 07/05/07 1:26PM
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(nt)

JGZimmerle on 07/05/07 2:19PM
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hEgelia:

Well, in MacOS the window maximise tool is on the left as well. Anyway, I think it would be best, if the user could just assign the position on the window for each tool.

IIRC LBA48 (and thus support for discs with more than 128GiB) was introduced in ATA-6.

JGZimmerle on 07/05/07 2:20PM
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hzn: "I'm not quite sure what you mean with 'urgency' here and how this word can apply to ROL at all?"

Are you being sarcastic or serious? Heheh. Well, what I meant is that ROL may have had the choice to either finish above mentioned features or 'wrap up' what they already had finished and bug-tested, in order to get Select 4 sooner out the door.

"But perhaps they did indeed drop some things to get something to give their customers to simply reduce the risk that some more simply do not continue their subscription, and perhaps keep something up the sleeve since PM did promise that user's wont have to wait more than six or 12 months for the next release."

I'm not quite sure what you mean with "promise" here and how this word can apply to ROL at all?

Anyway, I think it's safe to assume ROL have the really time-consuming work of 32 bitting behind them now, so they'll probably be releasing stuff a bit more regularly now. I just hope the originally announced features will make it in a later Select 4 release, which will hopefully also work on the A9home. Still, what you say could make sense, in that ROL is trying to regain some subscriptions by gradually releasing features they've already finished. Besides, it seems it's not really that important Select 4i2 works on the A9home, since at least some of those features are already present in the A9home's RISC OS 4.42 ROM release. Yet more dubious business practices, since Select 4 features would not be included in Adjust32*, which was described as "effectively a 32bit version of RISC OS 4.39 'Adjust' with some additional features essential for the operation of the A9 hardware". I don't think EDID support falls into that category.

*[link]

hEgelia on 07/05/07 2:32PM
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JGZimmerl:

"Anyway, I think it would be best, if the user could just assign the position on the window for each tool."

You can.

apdl on 07/05/07 6:13PM
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JGZimmerl: You can, but the problem is that the configuration tool would be *nasty* if you had to write a tool to do that. So - Configure only provides you with some common-sense examples to pick from.

*Help WimpToolOrder in a Task Window should reveal all you need if you want something not provided. I believe it's also in the documentation too.

md0u80c9 on 07/05/07 9:30PM
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The hardware monitor detection does sound useful, which I assume is for ViewFinder users, as VIDC predates EDID or DDC.

As for having the window titlebar at the bottom, there is only one application I know of which could make use this, my !Mirror ([link]) which is a desktop tool to help you create symmetrical objects by providing a live reflection of what is being drawn in another applications window (Draw, Paint, etc). As it can reflect in any of the 4 directions, the titlebar is placed at the bottom when reflecting what's above. Of course as it was written back in the early 90s, I implemented my own window furniture drawing routines, and wont be changing it again. But if I was to write something like that now, it would save a few hours work.

druck on 14/05/07 09:52AM
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