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New graphics card discussion list

By Chris Williams. Published: 13th Nov 2002, 23:24:21 | Permalink | Printable

Viewfinder list gone for good. Oh, Windfall will be pleased.

Dave Ruck of ARM Club fame has today posted news of the opening of a new smartgroups.com hosted mailing list with the topic of discussion being graphics cards in RISC OS machines. You might initially think that this would cover just the Viewfinder card but what with the Iyonix and Omega computers approaching release and boasting new graphics hardware and expansions card capabilities, drobe.co.uk guesses there's obviously lots for people to talk about and get all excited over. Right?

Well, actually there's another side to this story. Shortly after the Viewfinder card was released, an unmoderated mailing list for the card's users was created and was known as the Viewfinder list. As reported back in August this year, Windfall Engineering, the developer of the Viewfinder card, created its own moderated Windfall mailing list and for various reasons, demanded that the original Viewfinder list be shut down or else no more support would be provided for Viewfinder users. So, with the opening of this new graphics card list for free and general discussion, the old Viewfinder list has been closed, thereby allowing Viewfinder customers to once again get support from Windfall Engineering. Dave, you see, is a man with a plan.

"This to let people know that the ViewFinder mailing list which I created in June 2000 to offer help and support for users of the card, has now closed", Dave states in his announcement. "At the request of the 220+ former list members who wanted a forum to continue the free discussion of various topics, I have created a new mailing list for users of all machines featuring accelerated graphics cards, which will also include Castle's new Iyonix."

Dave is quick to stress that his new mailing list is nothing to do with Windfall Engineering and offers no form of official support or endorsement for the ViewFinder or any other products. Amusingly, we've been told by Dave that Windfall Engineering (in response to the new list being created) believe any discussion of their Viewfinder product on any discussion list, other than the official Windfall list, is unacceptable. That's priceless, isn't it?

Update
Made up your mind? Not so fast grasshopper. Read Windfall Engineering's John Kortink's reply on comp.sys.acorn.announce regarding Dave Ruck's new mailing list. Every coin has two sides.

Links

RISC OS Graphics card list website

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Discussion

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WORD OF THE DAY

joke /n/.

1. Something said or done to evoke laughter or amusement, especially an amusing story with a punch line. 2. A mischievous trick; a prank. 3. An amusing or ludicrous incident or situation.

Interestingly the term can be applied equally well to either an incident or (informally) to a person.

Tomorrow's word will be 'Impotent'. -- Spriteman.

 is a RISC OS UserSpriteman on 14/11/02 9:08AM
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O-kay. You need some coffee.

Chris, drobe.co.uk

 is a RISC OS Userdiomus on 14/11/02 9:13AM
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So what was wrong with Viewfinder users discussing this card on comp.sys.acorn.hardware?

Do we know why John Kortink of Windfall Engineering was so against free speech?

 is a RISC OS Userquatermass on 14/11/02 9:37AM
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quat: Nothing wrong with that, but it seems JK got pissed off for some reason in a discussion in the VF yahoogroup, and decided to start his own, and demanded the deletion of the VF group before any support would be given..

-- Marco Frissen,

 is a RISC OS Usermfrissen on 14/11/02 10:08AM
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Sounds like a bit of a grumpy geezer to me. Am I allowed to say that?

 is a RISC OS UserSnig on 14/11/02 10:17AM
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I don't know him personally, and have not had any problems with his service, but from all this he indeed seems a bit 'odd' to say the least..

 is a RISC OS Usermfrissen on 14/11/02 2:35PM
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Cmon. This guy simply asked his users to move to a moderated mailing list, and all hell broke loose. I don't blame him for making a stand. I've always got perfect service from him. Druck's the one that messed it up by doing his usual high horse routine.

 is a RISC OS Userjerryf on 14/11/02 4:43PM
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See John's reply on csa.announce, linked above.

Chris, drobe.co.uk

 is a RISC OS Userdiomus on 14/11/02 7:04PM
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sigh. -- Ian Hawkins (g0tai)

 is a RISC OS Userpiemmm on 14/11/02 7:08PM
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Arent there better things to get worked up about in the world? Leave the Kinkster alone! -- Steve Scott

Subang Jaya, Malaysia SAS Squad Page: www.sassquad.com/

 is a RISC OS Usersascott on 15/11/02 3:32AM
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To receive continued support please answer the following questions:

Are you now a member or have you ever posted to an unofficial viewfinder list?

Are any of your friends or family posting to such lists?

Do you sympathise with those that are members of such lists?

Have you ever knowingly used software by D.Ruck, J.Fletcher or other known sympathisers?

 is a RISC OS Usermavhc on 16/11/02 4:10PM
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Have you ever made up questions that have never been asked ?

 is a RISC OS Userjerryf on 16/11/02 7:03PM
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"This guy simply asked his users to move to a moderated mailing list."

Please try to get your facts straight. John has attempted to clarify the statement on csa.announce, which he similarly omitted the important detail that he demanded that the free, unmoderated ViewFinder maillist which David Ruck began should be removed. To quote from a message (which was actually forwarded to those on the ViewFinder list from the Windfall list because those on the ViewFinder list were not party to such discussion) :

"A new version of the Viewfinder software is ready to be released. However, I will not release it as long as the Viewfinder mailing list continues to exist.

Once the Viewfinder mailing list has been deleted, it will be business as usual."

This is in contravention of the terms and conditions of Yahoo! groups, and has been reported to Yahoo! by a number of individuals (seemingly with no response). The 'grief' and 'disturbances' which John alluded to in his initial posting to the ViewFinder group were freely available in the ViewFinder group archives. Of course, the removal of said group has removed those archives. I doubt anyone really cares enough to make an impartial decision as to who has been unreasonable and so such archives will forever remain lost I imagine.

Basically, John's stance was that he would not provide support for the card. Attempts to inform him of problems with the card and certain software have been met with total silence. Whilst I can understand his position, his reaction to the problems in silencing dissenters and quoshing their free-speech forum for discussion has been dispropotionate, dictatorial and has been the source of nearly all the subsequent bad feeling.

 is a RISC OS UserGerph on 16/11/02 7:26PM
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> Have you ever made up questions that have never been asked ? Never!

[link]

 is a RISC OS Usermavhc on 16/11/02 7:53PM
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I do have my facts straight. I have a Viewfinder and have followed the discussions on the mailing lists. JK has only ignored your and some other people's messages. Not surprisingly, AFAIC, sorry mate ... He has not refused to fix remaining problems. He definately said he'd fix the Zap problem, 4 example, since somebody discovered how to reproduce the problem.

By the way, all the Viewfinder mailing list messages are available in archive files from the new RISC OS Graphics card list. As far as I know, as JK said things went is basically right.

 is a RISC OS Userjerryf on 16/11/02 8:00PM
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jerryf:

It's hardly worth discussing at this point, but the issues and problems reported to JK include issues not discussed on the mailing list. The problems described have been real issues and to ignore them entirely and then claim that the people making such comments are causing disturbances and to DEMAND the closure of a list is totally and utterly unreasonable.

That was not 'simply asking users to a moderated mailing list'.

Basically, if you want to be a good little person and say nothing, then you'll be just fine. If you actually want to use RISC OS, and develop software that uses ViewFinder then you might as well forget about it. John is just not interested. He won't provide you any support. If you find problems, and inform him of them, he'll ignore you and become indignant when you cite the problems to others.

 is a RISC OS UserGerph on 17/11/02 2:25AM
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Gerph, that's big bollocks. A couple o' users, including you, have tried to force a few features outta him that *you* think are essential. It's not up to you to decide. Or question the decision at length. The Viewfinder works absolutely fine as it is for most. You concocted your own piece o' code, which was cheeky, but probably fine. I don't use it. I don't need it. I'd venture 2 say neither do many others. JK was just pissed with your insistence. Again, I don't blame him.

 is a RISC OS Userjerryf on 17/11/02 9:16AM
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If you've developed a product and your users have to actually implement features themselves for your product then you have to ask yourself why they're doing it.

The VF is good piece of hardware and if people can find ways of harnessing extra power from it then they will. There's no "forcing" people, if I develop a patch for the VF then it's your choice to use the patch and its my responsibility to provide support for it. And watch yer language too kthnx.

Chris, drobe.co.uk

 is a RISC OS Userdiomus on 17/11/02 1:39PM
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I think if users implement something themselves they have to ask themselves why they're doing it. It isn't the authors duty to implement or even contemplate specific user requirements. If he does, it's a service. Not a right.

 is a RISC OS Userjerryf on 17/11/02 3:52PM
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If you say so. If a program or OS provides hooks for third party additions then what do you expect?

Chris, drobe.co.uk

 is a RISC OS Userdiomus on 17/11/02 7:10PM
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I expect third parties to use them if necessary. What's your point, mate ?

 is a RISC OS Userjerryf on 17/11/02 7:41PM
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My point is that's what was done. People made use of documented and encouraged hooks to enhance their VF cards.

However this whole argument is a tad pointless as John's changed his support policy and everyone (except Select 2 users but we'll wait for this to get resolved) should be happy now - see recent VF article.

Chris, drobe.co.uk

 is a RISC OS Userdiomus on 18/11/02 3:18AM
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Oh no m8, Gerph did *not* use 'documented and encouraged hooks'. Even then, JK said he didn't mind any of the patches or utilz but only said he wanted nothing to do with them. The controversy was over their 'you *must* implement this' attitudez.

 is a RISC OS Userjerryf on 18/11/02 10:05AM
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May I add I think it's very sad that ppl make up such a load of cobblers about what JK has and hasn't said every time. No wonder he fights back. Really sad.

 is a RISC OS Userjerryf on 18/11/02 10:06AM
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