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Castle confident in Scotland

By Chris Williams. Published: 9th Dec 2003, 17:59:48 | Permalink | Printable

We see all, know all

Castle logoThe big question for the closing months of 2003 has been, "How many Iyonixes have Castle sold?" Making the exact figure public would allow users to gauge the stability of the platform and how much money is being spent on the latest native RISC OS kit. It'll also answer that other curious question: Who has the most users, RISC OS 4 or RISC OS 5?

It also doesn't seem to be a figure Castle are willing to publicise which, cynically, doesn't inspire confidence although on the other hand, it could be a ploy to keep the likes of MicroDigital and other rivals on their toes. Who else wryly smirked when Castle cheerfully extended their Iyonix champagne offer due to "unprecedented success of last Friday's Champagne offer"? Of course.

One day, however, that all important sales number will slip out and somehow be verified, with confirmation especially critical as even minor whispers tend to vary wildly depending on who you talk to. It's also precisely why we like keeping up to date on Castle's presentations, wherever they crop up. Yesterday, as you may know, saw the Castle Iyonix presentation in Edinburgh, Scotland, hosted with the help of Scottish dealer Liquid Silicon. You'll be pleased to hear that a Mr. Jim Hamilton picked up his free Iyonix on the night, seeing as he was the winner of the Iyonix anniversary prize draw.

Here's some photos from the event, kindly taken by Russell Hunter, who incidentally blames the low lighting in the conference room:

Thumbnail of photo of Castle presentationAnother thumbnail of photo of Castle presentation
Big | Small | EnhancedBig | Small | Enhanced


The evening started off with the standard presentation Castle's Jack Lillingston usually gives, detailing the 600MHz XScale powered Iyonix's abilities and performance to an audience of about 20, according to Russell. The slick slide show was followed by a question and answer session, or rather, Question Time with Stuart Halliday, because we've learnt Cybervillage's Stuart had a lot to ask. No CV write up as yet, we note.

"One of [Jack Lillingston's] comments was that commercially the Iyonix is doing very well, with Castle's engineers currently working flat out to support these customers", Russell, 22, told us in his review of the event.

"Which is good, he said, as these people tend to place orders of 20-30 machines in the one go. Surely this can only be a good thing as I'm not sure a company could survive selling RISC OS computers to home users only.

"Another point was raised about RISC OS 5 and Select. He said Select included modifications made to the 'central core' of RISC OS. Castle didn't want to do it this way. They would rather these were additions instead, not changing the core version of RISC OS which many commerical customers rely on. He said it's just a matter of taking the time to implement Select features in this way - no timescales were mentioned."

Terrific to see the Not Invented Here syndrome lives on, even after the death of the long time sufferer Acorn.

Links


Castle website
Iyonix website Photo enhancement efforts from Campbell Wishart

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Discussion

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It's easy to find out the sales figures, just get lots of people to post their serial numbers

 is a RISC OS Usermavhc on 9/12/03 8:36PM
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Does anyone know of any specific commercial customer?

 is a RISC OS Userpipalya on 9/12/03 8:42PM
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How long have people been asking for Select features under RISC OS 5?

How long will it be before we no longer have to ask for it?

 is a RISC OS Userjonix on 9/12/03 9:38PM
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mavhc: Serial number posting is only meaningful if serial numbers are truly serial (ahem!). There are reasons why this is not a sensible thing to do with hardware production - eg do you remember that all numbers up to 357 had revision A boards, numbers 358-451 had rev B and 451-whatever had rev C, or do you start numbering from 500, 1000 etc when you change rev?

The 1000th NET100 had a serial number much less than 1000, due to different prefixes for different resellers and OEM's.

 is a RISC OS Userstdevel on 9/12/03 9:48PM
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With regard to all the cynicism about the champagne offer, surely someone tried phoning Castle at 9am for the *original* offer, and talked to them for some tens of minutes, whilst seeing how many "call waiting" beeps popped up?

No-one tried? (I was busy). Suffice to say that at least one person has already gone public by saying that they'd phoned Castle and bought a brand new top spec Iyonix between 4pm and 5pm on the Friday before. If it's possible on Friday, why not on Monday?

The follow-up offer has all the hallmarks of a company realising that a "nice" giveaway attracts an instant buying crowd (compare, for example, the previous amazon.co.uk "limited free delivery offer" that suddenly became permanent. It may be economically unviable, but that changes if it doubles your sales...)

Did MicroDigital wryly smirk? If so, they didn't tell the RISC OS public about it, and it looks like they didn't tell Drobe about it either (otherwise an exclusive would be appearing here as I type).

Credit to Stuart H for keeping on with the questions. 20-ish is a disappointingly low turnout (I think John Ballance got more than that at RONWUG just for an "I'll fit your Iyonix upgrade" evening), but it was strictly a one-night only event, so hats off to the Scottish clan for making it happen.

In the long run, the article is right; sales volumes are something we will later realise (just like the Risc PC). What I'm realising from user group meetings, is that about a third of serious RISC OS users have already bought an Iyonix, another quarter are considering buying an Iyonix, and beyond that there is a 10% hard core of Risc PC users.

I'm not sure where we lost the rest of them. But I should make clear that a good proportion of Iyonix users I know, also own a laptop with the VARPC emulator, or a StrongARM Risc PC with RISC OS Select.

In most cases, both.

dgs

 is a RISC OS Userdgs on 9/12/03 10:17PM
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Commerical customers? Well, I'm one, as I use it for my work. I can name at least 3 companies who bought a machine for various reasons (none of who I'll be naming), but none of that means much. Many of the "big" customers Castle have will use the machines in situations which may not be overly obvious, and often, not terribly exciting either.

 is a RISC OS Usermrchocky on 9/12/03 10:26PM
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mrchocky: That's right, they mostly only excite people because of an order for thirty or forty computers in one go...

On the other hand, some of the applications *are* quite interesting.

dgs

 is a RISC OS Userdgs on 9/12/03 10:29PM
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dgs: Thanks to everyone who did come along and while 20 is a fiarly small number the evenet was organised with only a few weeks notice. It was also on a Monday night and with freezing temperatures, Brigadoon fog and a car crash (hope you're all right!) several people couldn't make it.

We'll need to start organising a Scottish user group of some fashion again to get more people involved with these things.

 is a RISC OS Userliquid on 9/12/03 10:36PM
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liquid: Yes. The first speaker I have in mind isn't English, is that OK? :-)

dgs

 is a RISC OS Userdgs on 9/12/03 10:45PM
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I thought that most businesses leased machines instead of purchasing them these days. At work they spent thousands of $$$ back in 1995 buying around 30 RISC PCs and A7000s brand new for their LAN - now instead of upgrading to Iyonixes they've replaced them all with leased PCs.

 is a RISC OS Usertimephoenix on 9/12/03 11:42PM
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Out of interest, what Select features do people want to see in RISC OS 5? I am a current Select subscriber and the first feature that springs to mind is copy and paste to and from writable icons. Also, the fix for incorrect outline font widths being calculated for some strings would be nice (evident with some filenames in the filer).

 is a RISC OS Userksattic on 9/12/03 11:54PM
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timephoenix: Have you suggested this alternative to Castle's customers?

dgs

 is a RISC OS Userdgs on 10/12/03 12:13AM
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ksattic: that, and filer thumbnailing, overhauled !Configure and associated plugins and Syslog, overhauled !Paint, iconborders, IFR and improved graphics system, improved Filer, networking updates, all the OS bug fixes, proper recycle bin and other things I probably take for granted.

All in my very own, personal opinion.

Chris. Just me.

 is a RISC OS Userdiomus on 10/12/03 12:39AM
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I agree completely with Jack about Select - it should never have included changes to the kernel except things that required it, although even then theres ROMPatches.

It all should have been done !Newlook-style with softloaded modules for DHCP, thumbnailing, graduated backdrops, rounded buttons and such.

Select means you have to load from disk and use 4Mb of RAM extra, so you might as well softload the extras and leave the kernel alone in ROM (be it 4.02 or 5.03)

Anyway too late now....

 is a RISC OS Usersimo on 10/12/03 1:27AM
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A little uncharitable to accuse Castle of NIH. Jack gave a pretty sound reason (IMHO) as to why they wanted Select imporvements to be modular. ie to keep the footprint of the kernal small to suit embeded products.

I may be a bit out of touch but small fast kernal with flowery bits bolted on certainly used to be a desirable way to design an OS. Have things changed?

In addition to liquid: As well as the dreadful weather, how many ROS users are there in Scotland? I'll bet that there are considerably fewer than in various parts of England. We certainly don't have enough to merit any kind of show. So pro rata maybe 20 was prety good.

Hats off to Alan and Jack for puting the effort into organising the first significant ROS event North of the Border, that I know of, since the Acorn Show in Glasgow about three years ago.

 is a RISC OS Usersnapper on 10/12/03 1:46AM
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It may be of interest, but at the Edinburgh event there was one gentleman who had seen the demo in an article on a general OS site. He'd never used Risc OS ever but thought he'd come along to see the box.

Amoungst his comments were. 'That is quiet', 'where's the heatsink and fan', 'that's the CPU - you're kidding' and 'it dissapates how much heat?'

The stumbling block - 1300 for an OS he'd not used before.

Cue next installment on relative merits of hardware V emulation....

 is a RISC OS Usersnapper on 10/12/03 2:07AM
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In reply to snapper:

Many of the changes in Select have involved the *removal* of features from the kernel into separate modules, e.g. the command line interpreter, system sprite area support, and various legacy BBC calls.

I would have thought that I would be advantageous for embedded products to use a small kernel plus any extra modules that they need, rather than the monolithic kernel used in other versions of RISC OS (including OS 5, AFAIK). For example none of the facilities mentioned earlier are likely to be needed.

As you can tell, I am generally in favour of a 'small fast' kernel, I just think that it is disingenuous to suggest that this goal is not shared by the Select developers.

 is a RISC OS UserJimbo on 10/12/03 2:09AM
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Select has indeed pulled much out of the kernel, keeping it more streamlined than before. Looking at my modules list, even things like the OS SWIs, OS commands and the system variable handling have been abstracted out of the kernel.

I don't see what's stopping Castle developing a RISC OS for desktop use and RISC OS for commercial, presumably embedded use. A little version control never hurt nobody.

Chris. Just me.

 is a RISC OS Userdiomus on 10/12/03 2:19AM
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> I don't see what's stopping Castle developing a RISC OS for desktop use and RISC OS for commercial, presumably embedded use. A little version control never hurt nobody.

Well, that's what they'd get by having the Select changes in separate modules, and it's a lot easier to just bundle together a set of modules than it is to have different builds of the kernel (compilation switches), or worse, different 'branches' in source control meaning that they can become radically different - which is where we are now :-(

It's also not much fun for the programmers if they have to spend a lot of time checking the impact of changes made for one specific version, and comparing different branches to check that a bug has been fixed in all.... Been there, done that!

 is a RISC OS Useradrianl on 10/12/03 6:51AM
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I don't think that either Castle's or RISCOS Ltd's ideas on what the kernel should look like are necessarily right or wrong, the trouble is Castle seem to be just saying to RISCOS Ltd they wouldn't have done it that way, and if RISCOS Ltd want to release Select for RISC OS 5 then they have to go and rewrite everything from a different starting point. Where is the boundary between where RISCOS Ltd should work and Castle should work then though? There's been a discussion on csa.networking about the Internet module which has a later version number in RISC OS 5 than Select, but is actually older and missing some of the features of the Select version; how is the module versioning system supposed to cope with two companies developing the same modules?

The fact that Castle and RISCOS Ltd can't even seem to come to an agreement on single versions of the distributable bits of RISC OS (SharedCLib and the Toolbox modules in particular) doesn't give me much hope for them coming to an agreement on the rest of it unfortunately.

 is a RISC OS Userilludium on 10/12/03 9:46AM
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Illidium makes a lucid point. How long before we require separately packaged RISC OS Select and RISC OS 5 apps which cannot reliably run on the other OS due to the RMEnsure command being made redundant?

 is a RISC OS Userjonix on 10/12/03 11:25AM
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Illidium: surely only a matter of time? I find it quite odd when the Iyonix was first released and labelled as coming with 'RISC OS 5'. I thought, hang on RISC OS 4 is still being developed! I've tried on several occasions to explain that to people outside the RISC OS world and they laugh to be honest.

The lack of co-operation is really getting on my nerves, the two OS's are diverging at an increasing rate and after a while something has to give.

I'd still like to know why Castle felt they should go it along with RISC OS 5 and not consult with other companies about a common direction for the operating system. And where does this leave Microdigital who remain on RISC OS 4 with the Omega?

A while ago I was very motivated to begin designing a general RISC OS website for people new to the platform, explaining packages that were available and the benefits of the different systems. It seems now that the different machines and OS's running on them are moving so far apart that I'd never be able to explain this on a website for new users.

We need co-operation and we need it now, I don't understand how Castle can think any other way.

 is a RISC OS Userrod on 10/12/03 12:25PM
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Well, as far at the numbers go, 26bit RISC OS is the more popular version of the OS. All of the new machines currently available (including those running the enulator) use ROL's RISC OS and CTL and it's Iyonix stand alone with 32bit RISC OS. So, on that basis I'm sure ROL are quite happy with their position. However, CTL are probably quietly confident too given that they have the fastest RISC OS machine ever made and now own RISC OS. They have the freedom to do what they want.

So, while all this is going on the customers are denied the best of both worlds. And this isn't going to change just coz we want it to. There has to be a financial motivation for ROL and CTL to cooperate. I don't see a reason at the moment.

I didn't go to the presentation because I didn't think that it was worth travelling 45 miles on a cold, foggy, Monday night just to see a computer. Don't get me wrong, the Iyonix is cool. Just not that cool :)

-- Spriteman

 is a RISC OS UserSpriteman on 10/12/03 12:26PM
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I'm appauled at your lack of dedication Spriteman. :)

I don't think RO5 will get Selects fancy features for a long time. It requires cooperation and a common objective between the two companies. I don't the advantage Castle would get out of Select, other than a few happy users. People who would rather opt for Select over OS5 must be barmy in my opinion- you've waited years for new hardware and now you're not going to get it because you want curvey icons/thumbnails. nutters. :D

 is a RISC OS UserSnig on 10/12/03 12:41PM
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snig:

I'd agree with that - having gone to the seaside to get my RO5 machine last saturday.

OK its not as spangly but it is VERY fast - I am still not used to it.... ;-)

 is a RISC OS Userepistaxsis@work on 10/12/03 2:54PM
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ksattic There is nothing I really need and nothing I want from Select for my Iyonix ;o).

Perhaps if ROL were to release modules as products then users could mix and match what they want.

Spriteman There are no 'other machines' besides the Omega. VARPC is a product that people have chosen to bundle with a Windows PC.

Sadly the only competitor for an Iyonix is a kick ass PC running VARPC I doubt the Omega will ever be a competitor for anything other than a Kinetic.

Thus the only serious use for RO4+/Select is to run on emulators which may well be very lucrative, but an emulator is still NOT a RISC OS machine.

 is a RISC OS Userblahsnr on 10/12/03 5:09PM
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Snig Indeed!

600MHz fast discs huge screen resolutions and new clean icons vs 200MHz slow everything else and curved buttons.

 is a RISC OS Userblahsnr on 10/12/03 5:14PM
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ksattic

I agree, RO writable icons are one of the poorest features of the OS. Having the ability to cut and paste to/from them (and to drag bits of text around within them) would benefit almost every application, old and new and (I presume) break almost nothing.

Those, together with the general purpose graphics converters, are the only things that have appealed to me.

 is a RISC OS UserTonyStill on 10/12/03 5:37PM
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epistaxis> The speed of an Iyonix takes a little getting used to alright !

I had a grin for two weeks solid (it started scaring the neighbours - although I think they're getting used to it now). I've started mucking around with programming it (it's quite a while since I bothered doing that on the old RPC). And that's the whole point - Iyonix brings a bit of the excitement back - enthuses people. I'd tentatively suggest that round buttons and curvy text boxes *don't*, that's no fault of ROL it's just the way things are.

Regards

Annraoi

 is a RISC OS UserAMS on 10/12/03 7:06PM
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A good multi-line writable icon would be nice for a Select addition - and it's something that would be required on RISC OS 5 if apps started using it. I realise there's a multi-line writable tool in the Toolbox, but it is pretty poor.

 is a RISC OS Userksattic on 10/12/03 7:18PM
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ksattic: What is wrong with the textarea ?

 is a RISC OS UserGrek1 on 10/12/03 7:22PM
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The textarea is the toolbox control I was referring to. It is buggy and slow. What is needed is something that works and that is as fast as, say, Impression (for typing).

I've not actually seen an app that uses the textarea control - apart from textarea demos. Is there one?

 is a RISC OS Userksattic on 10/12/03 7:32PM
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ksattic: Don't know. I have written a few programs which use them and have had no problems. Which bugs do you mean ? They may have been fixed in the new toolbox release.

 is a RISC OS UserGrek1 on 10/12/03 7:37PM
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Grek1: That sounds promising - by any chance could you send me one of your programs so I can test the textareas to see if the bugs still show up? The last time I tried, I was unable to reliably select text and drag-and-drop didn't work at all.

 is a RISC OS Userksattic on 10/12/03 8:06PM
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Yes, I will need an email adress for that.

The program is a beta version though and its ca. 200 KB. I have switched drag'n'drop load off as that does not make much sense with that application, but if you want to test it just switch back on with ResEd.

 is a RISC OS UserGrek1 on 10/12/03 8:31PM
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Grek1: Email to simonDotWilsonAtColoradoDotEdu - of course change the relevant parts to dots and ats. Thank you!

 is a RISC OS Userksattic on 10/12/03 10:13PM
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Word wrapping in textareas seems to be completely impossible to me, get to the end of the top line and it just cuts the words off.

I've even seen certain apps that have given up with them and have instead used multiple text boxes stitched together instead with complex algorithms to figure out when to split the lines!

And last time I experimented (a few months back) the Select TextGadget module and !ResEd added features which if used on pre-Select machines, caused the app to crash, don't think the 2 features, whatever they were were copied to the Castle TB/!ResEd either.....

It's a shame actually, as TextArea hassles made me give up C programming on RISC OS :(

 is a RISC OS Usersimo on 10/12/03 10:45PM
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I've just got my finger out and tried making a quick test app, and it appears that the textarea gadget has had a number of improvements. The only bug I could see is that there's no easy way to deselect text if you select all of the text in the textarea. You have to click the right button to reduce the selection size and then click in an unselected part of the text to unselect it all. That's not very obvious, but it appears to have improved overall. The speed, word-wrap and drag-n-drop problems appear to have been solved, though. Great!

 is a RISC OS Userksattic on 10/12/03 10:59PM
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I'm typing into a textarea right now. As I understand, they were originally written for either Java or Browse (or both) They are alright in general, but they get very slow on slow machines or if someone puts a huge EULA in them.

 is a RISC OS Userjohn on 10/12/03 11:26PM
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Ooh, solved textareas?

OK so which ToolBox upgrade is this - the ROL one from a few days ago or the Castle one from a while back that was just after the ROL upgrade (the one that screwed everyone's machines pre 4.02)?

Are there the usual problems with the Installer from ROL? I seem to recall there were problems with fonts for this last one? (heading off to csa.misc)

 is a RISC OS Usersimo on 10/12/03 11:26PM
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ksattic: You can deselect things with ctrl-z, do you still need that example app ?

 is a RISC OS UserGrek1 on 10/12/03 11:31PM
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Ah, it seems the latest upgrade I was thinking about was the RO4 patch from ROL, which broke a lot of !Boot's due to some font issue.

So the latest ToolBox distro is either the Castle or ROL one from a few months back (which I thought I tried). Or maybe there's a newer one in Select 4.37?

So which version of the TextGadget module are you referring to here Simon [Wilson]?

 is a RISC OS Usersimo on 10/12/03 11:33PM
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Simon: It's the RISCOS Ltd free update from September this year.

Grek1: Sure, if it's not too much hassle!

 is a RISC OS Userksattic on 10/12/03 11:37PM
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Thanks Simon, must be TextGadget 0.49 then, which I've got, but maybe I've not tried my program since then....

Oh no, if that works I'm going to be spending endless nights coding again, cheers ;)

 is a RISC OS Usersimo on 10/12/03 11:48PM
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ksattic: email send.

 is a RISC OS UserGrek1 on 10/12/03 11:50PM
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Grek1: Thanks, I'll reply by email later.

Simon: TextGadget is version 0.49 on my machine (Jul 03). Sorry about that! :)

 is a RISC OS Userksattic on 11/12/03 00:18AM
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0.49 does fix the wordwrap problem, now I've got to figure out how to use Messages files from C....

 is a RISC OS Usersimo on 11/12/03 05:32AM
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I enjoyed the visit by Castle. Ok, its was a shame there was freezing fog outside and it was a Monday night, so hardly much of an incentive to get into the car or public transport and travle to an airport. Previous and next night was of course perfect weather-wise.

Yes, I was asking lots of questions, because there was a few points I was personally interested in and if you know me you'll know I'm not afraid to ask. :-)

I was a little disappointed to see how long the Iyonix took to open a 128MB USB stick with only 2 files on it and then to learn that it only supports FAT16 at the moment which has a 4GB limit. So I can't stick my 100GB USB harddrive in it! Jack was also a little vague on when USB 2 support would be added (I find USB 1.1 too slow personally).

I did find the Iyonix to be a very fast (and very quiet) computer when performing desktop operations like moving windows, opening directories, loading/saving files all seemed to be a lot faster than my 2GHz Windows PC. Though actually getting real work done like creating a large Zip file or doing a Guass. blur on a large image whilst being slower than my PC was much faster than my RiscPC.

I was amused that whilst Jack talks about the UDMA aspects of the harddrive, the Iyonix on demo couldn't have been using it. The CD-ROM drive and Harddrive were sharing the same IDE channel so by default this channel will drop down to IDE mode 4. Oops. (Hope its not shipped like that?)

I was left feeling that if this machine was ever to come along with a Xscale running at 1GHz it would be a real mean beast to compete against current 2GHz Windows PC.

If I was to be picky I was surprised to see that the Iyonix drops to an unusable 59Hz screen refreash rate on the very large screen modes and it didn't appear to multi-task very well at all when accessing the floppy (worse than my RiscPC in fact).

But I've yet to see any sign that either ROS ltd or Castle are really making an effort to get existing Users off their old nonSA-RiscPCs. These people seem to be quite happy using ARM 6 or 7 processors for some reason.

With the current trend in PCland to make the PC a home entertainment centre, ROS machines need to go down the same route I feel.

MicroDigital have been rumoured to be developing a super small RISC OS motherboard for a potential very small home machine.

No reason why Castle couldn't be doing the same. ;-)

Bringing the home computer into the Living room is really the future of home computers. We need a small, quiet, cool, reliable and fast computer to do this.

The PC will always struggle to do this. With Xscale and RISC OS it would be a doddle!

 is a RISC OS Userquatermass on 11/12/03 10:58AM
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quatermass: What should Castle do to get people with pre-SA machines to upgrade? Surely if someone has spent more than six years not having the funds to buy a StrongARM upgrade, then no Iyonix discount from Castle is going to enable them to afford an Iyonix.

dgs

 is a RISC OS Userdgs on 11/12/03 11:39AM
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Demonstrate what new tasks you can achieve with the extra CPU power/stuff that would make upgrading worth the money.

 is a RISC OS Usermavhc on 11/12/03 4:47PM
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Stuart Microdigital are also rumoured to be producing a machine called the Omega for several years now as well; specs to be found here [link]

*Please* don't do this rumour thing it has done enough damage already.

 is a RISC OS Userblahsnr on 11/12/03 7:40PM
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In reply to Stuart Nice to read your views. An interesting read. Why not try submitting them to drobe news ? Not sure that that many people make it all the way down here !

 is a RISC OS Usermartin on 12/12/03 08:56AM
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to mavhc: well, run DVDs for a start (once Cino is ready)? Play Quake at an acceptable resolution/frame rate? Do work involving high resolutions and colour depths without the bottlenecks imposed by ViewFinder? More to the point, extra speed makes operations like retouching large image files feasible rather than merely possible: if something which took 5 minutes now takes 45 secs, you can do it on a regular basis or with large batches.

But of course if you never do or wish to do any of these things, speed is indeed of little consequence, which goes to the question posed by dgs.

 is a RISC OS Useranon/80.46.180.251 on 12/12/03 09:34AM
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Why not submit to drobe news? Well they could maybe stick a link to Cybervillage.

I dont know why the cybervillage link was removed from drobe but I'm now going to the iconbar for my links.

As for the edinburgh Airport venue, that was why I didn't go. If it was in the town centre I would have got the train through.

Cheers Bob

 is a RISC OS Usernijinsky on 12/12/03 2:11PM
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    IconbarMyRISCOSArcSiteRISCOScodeANSC.S.A.AnnounceArchiveQercusRiscWorldDrag'n'DropGAG-News

    Top developers:
    RISCOS LtdRISC OS OpenMW SoftwareR-CompAdvantage SixVirtualAcorn

    Dealers:
    CJE MicrosAPDLCastlea4X-AmpleLiquid SiliconWebmonster

    Usergroups:
    WROCCRONENKACCIRUGSASAUGROUGOLRONWUGMUGWAUGGAGRISCOS.be

    Useful:
    RISCOS.org.ukRISCOS.orgRISCOS.infoFilebaseChris Why's Acorn/RISC OS collectionNetSurf

    Non-RISC OS:
    The RegisterThe InquirerApple InsiderBBC NewsSky NewsGoogle Newsxkcddiodesign


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