NetBook Missing In Action | Drobe.co.uk archives

NetBook Missing In Action

By Peter Naulls. Published: 5th Mar 2004, 19:03:12 | Permalink | Printable

Please Return [Updated]

John Mason, of CJE Micro's today contacted drobe.co.uk in a plea for return of his Psion NetBook.

John's NetBook apparently went missing during pack up at the South West show last weekend. It contains a variety of important materials for John's course work, and other items. The Psion Netbook, pictured, is a sub-A4 laptop, powered by a StrongARM SA1110 processor, the same machine targetted by RISCOS Ltd's RON project, which unfortunately never surfaced.

So, if you inadvertantly packed it up, or have John's machine for whatever other reason, he'd very much appreciate it back. John can be contacted though CJE.

[Updated]

John has advised us that his NetBook has now been returned.

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Discussion

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So, what happened to the RON Project?

pipalya on 6/3/04 7:00AM
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I hope he gets it back. I know exactly how he's feeling. Something similar as happened to me at college

Timothy609 on 6/3/04 8:36AM
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pipalya:

RON went for a burton

basically because RISC OS ltd couldn't be arsed / afford to do the donkey work of redoing RISC OS 4

see their latest news item about select on RISC OS 5... :rolleyes:

epistaxsis@work on 6/3/04 5:51PM
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epistaxis>

While I'd generally find myself in agreement with you on many ROS matters, I think you're being a bit unkind to RISC OS Ltd.

It is blatantly apparent that Psion themselves didn't know what to do with netbook or even if they wanted to sell to the public. In the light of that if I'd been in Paul Middleton shoes I'd also have been reluctant to do work on adapting the OS for a platform that might dissapear (as it did) in a puff of smoke.

True perhaps the work might have been reused for other things - but what other things ? Omega didn't need it, and Iyonix was not yet a gleam in Jack Lillington's eye.

As to the notion of Select on RO5 I'd be inclined to think "so what", I bought my Iyonix knowing full well it couldn't (and probably *never* would) run Select. So (purely from my viewpoint) it doesn't really matter *if* Select runs on Iyonix or not - I'd argue it would be of benefit to ROL if it *did* - but if they can't see that why should I (or anyone else) bother to try persuade them otherwise.

Regards

Annraoi

AMS on 6/3/04 6:31PM
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AMS:

"but if they can't see that why should I (or anyone else) bother to try persuade them otherwise"

Er, because many people really do value the features that Select has added to RISC OS. Also, I've heard a considerable number of people say that they are waiting for Select stuff to run on the Iyonix before they'll buy one, so it could possibly be quite beneficial to Iyonix sales.

fylfot on 6/3/04 6:41PM
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fylfot: How large is a considerable number?

I've seen Select cited as a reason for buying an Omega instead of an Iyonix, but that was half joking anyway (as you might expect!) Other than that...

dgs

dgs on 6/3/04 7:03PM
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dgs:

I think you'd agree that Select subscribers are part of the "active RISC OS market" that we often refer to. They're the ones who buy stuff and it appears that many of them are now Iyonix owners. My evidence is completely anecdotal, however, I know quite a few Select users who've supported the Select scheme. They feel that they've made a financial contribution to some significant OS development which without them wouldn't have happened. Also, they've stayed Select subscribers because they do value the work that's been done. Now, these users I've describe would love to have brand spanking new machines, but are reluctant to because they don't want to lose the Select features that they've become accustomed to.

Having said that, I'm sure there are also people who don't really care about Select; that's fine. But I'm hoping that very soon we'll at least be given the choice of running Select on the Iyonix. I'm convinced there's a market for it.

The most sensible thing RISC OS Ltd. could do is to survey all the Select members. They keep telling us that the necessary support needs to be there, but they haven't actually asked us!

Anyway, enough already.

fylfot on 6/3/04 7:28PM
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fylfot>

Yes I have seen comments from some people to the effect that they would buy an Iyonix *only* when Select became available. If *everyone* had done that there'd be no Iyonixes available and being able to run Select on them would be moot.

Iyonix's success was acchieved by those who bought and were not deterred by Select *not* being available - if enough people buy Iyonix at some point ROL may realise that there *is* a worthwhile market there. Frankly though I don't think it really matters, RO5 exists and it works - it may lack some of Select's bells and whistles - but guess what we'll live without it if we have to.

Regards

Annraoi

AMS on 6/3/04 7:34PM
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True, whereas other people will live without the Iyonix. I have had to decide on either an Iyonix for £1250 or a damn fast PC + VRPC for substantially less. The fact that Select runs on VRPC has sort of tipped the balance. As well as the considerable speed increase it gives me over a Kinetic 266 I will also have the option of increasing the machines speed even further when a faster CPU comes along, which it will.

Cheers!

The Doctor on 6/3/04 7:51PM
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AMS:

"Yes I have seen comments from some people to the effect that they would buy an Iyonix only when Select became available. If everyone had done that there'd be no Iyonixes available and being able to run Select on them would be moot."

Er, and? I don't see how your point has anything to do with what I've said.

"Iyonix's success was acchieved by those who bought and were not deterred by Select not being available".

Again, I don't see how this has anything to do with what I've said. People are buying the Iyonix because it's an excellent machine, that does not mean that they don't want Select features to be made available to them.

Why is everyone so negative about Select all of a sudden? The politics that go on between Castle and ROL have nothing to do with the value of Select. And as I've almost said before, I really don't care if there are people who don't like what Select offers; there are people out there who do want to have it on their Iyonix PCs and wish for ROL to realise that fact.

fylfot on 6/3/04 7:57PM
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The Doctor>

Yes, it's always difficult to make large expendature decisions like that. And people have to make the choices they make. Point is one has to ask the question what benefits RISC OS more buying a PC with WindowsXP/VARPC/RISC OS or supporting native ARM hardware like the Iyonix ?

Once you transition to Windows you make yourself dependant on MS continuing to maintain Windows in such a way that VARPC will continue to be supported. Would you like to wager that that will *always* be the case ?

By supporting native hardware you take that doubt out, I (frankly) worry about the longterm viability of RISC OS if its future becomes inextricably linked to Windows. Will someone at some point (for example) suggest that VARPC/RISC OS 4.XX allow direct WinAPI use from within the emulated environment - perhaps even dropping support for RISC OS running on real ARM hardware (after all what's the point if all it's ever going to do is be run on a PC ?).

It's a dangerous path, but its an option some people seem to be prepared to justify - but I ask one question - is it worth jeopardising the future of RISC OS just because one version of RISC OS has rounded buttons and a graduated background and another does not ?

Regards

Annraoi

AMS on 6/3/04 8:01PM
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fylfot>

I never said I liked or disliked *what* Select offers. I just said it did not deter me from buying an Iyonix and (fortunately) a large number of other people did likewise. And yes, you're right, just because someone bought an Iyonix does not mean that they do *not* want Select features.

However you also pointed out that some people *didn't* buy Iyonixes because it did not run Select - that might be true - but I made the point that if everyone had done that (in effect ignoring *how good* the hardware is - as you've just admitted) then the hardware would have failed to sell and that would be that - wouldn't it ?

And all over a few round buttons and no graduated backdrop - talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater......

Regards

Annraoi

AMS on 6/3/04 8:15PM
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AMS:

"And all over a few round buttons and no graduated backdrop - talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater...... "

I do hope you're being sarcastic. If you truly believe that that's all the Select scheme has contributed to RISC OS then you're being very ignorant indeed. If you don't value Select, then fine. But I do wish you wouldn't spread such rubbish about Select with your blasé cmments.

fylfot on 6/3/04 8:23PM
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fylfot>

There may have been sarcasm in there alright

. The buttons and backdrop are the most visible bit - and a lot of the rationalisation and changes and improvements made are somewhat below the surface and not quite so visible. I am quite aware of what Select offers.

But I think the substantive point was is Select so good that it's worth killing off the hardware component of the RISC OS platform. It seems to me that Select has been used as (for example) as a justification for some to move to Windows and for others to (in effect) boycott Iyonix. When seen in *that* light is it really such a good thing (irrespective of whatever technical merits it may have) ?

Kind Regards

Annraoi

AMS on 6/3/04 8:35PM
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AMS:

"I am quite aware of what Select offers."

Good.

"But I think the substantive point was is Select so good that it's worth killing off the hardware component of the RISC OS platform."

Why do you assume that supporters of Select want to kill off new hardware? My whole point has centred around getting Select on the Iyonix. Er, new hardware in other words.

Really you don't seem to be saying anything at all. Your attitude can be summed up as "Select bad, Iyonix good". Have you anything more interesting to say?

fylfot on 6/3/04 8:41PM
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Just realised this is drobes 998th article - they'v almost reached 1000, which is a real milestone. Well done guys

Timothy609 on 6/3/04 8:43PM
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fylfot>

I didn't assume that (and never said) that supporters of Select were trying to kill off the Iyonix.

If all you get from my comments are "Select bad, Iyonix Good" then you've missed the point.

Regards

Annraoi

AMS on 6/3/04 9:00PM
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I suspect that for many of those who decided not to buy an Iyonix until it runs select, the cost was also an issue. Were an Iyonix half the price, then not running select wouldn't be so offputting. (Certainly the case for me)

jess on 6/3/04 9:51PM
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Isn't RISC-OS 5 with the free updates kind of simular to select? What would be the benefits of select on top of this except to have the extra features sooner?

Jaco on 6/3/04 11:01PM
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fylfot: I've been a Select subscriber since near the start of Select, and still am.

Like most other people I know, I'm moving most things to my Iyonix. So Select is being left behind.

Still interested to know how large the considerable number was, though.

"I know quite a few Select users who've supported the Select scheme"

Eh?!?!?

dgs

dgs on 7/3/04 12:26AM
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How many people have an Iyonix and Select?

How many have an Iyonix and want Select but aren't subscribed?

How many don't have an Iyonix because it doesn't have Select yet?

Estimates please.

mavhc on 7/3/04 1:32AM
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Could Drobe be persuaded to put up a survey to guage the real size if the issue. I am a Select subscriber with an Iyonix, and I no longer use my RiscPC. I would like some of the Select features (AppleTalk, Image Viewer, Global Clipboard, improved Paint, etc) to be available on the Iyonix.

It would be useful for both ROL and Castle to know how many users want Select on the Iyonix, how many are holding back because of it, how many wouldn't buy and Iyonix with/without Select and how many Iyonix users couldn't care about Select.

Cheers, Grahame.

GrahameP on 7/3/04 10:45AM
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GrahameP:

As I said earlier, I think that ROL should conduct such a survey. I'm going to email them and see what they say. I'll report back.

fylfot on 7/3/04 2:24PM
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'Nice' discussion here which won't help John. He needs his Psion NetBook. Don't chat but send his goodie to him!

Gollum on 7/3/04 3:09PM
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mavhc >

If I recall correctly iconbar (sorry Chris/Peter) had a poll which suggest 20% of respondents use RO5/Iyonix and 27% use Select (select the view previous polls option). They've also started a new poll (it must very new as my single vote changed all the stats !!!!!) which asks various questions about whether people want/don't/don't care etc., if Select is on the Iyonix or not.

Granted this may not be the most *scientific* way of finding out (for one thing its hard to tell how many people actually voted !), but it is at least some measure.

Regards

Annraoi

AMS on 7/3/04 3:55PM
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The Icon Bar poll was interesting but... I watched it over some weeks and it suddenly had a large jump in favour of RO5, then a resurgence of RO4. I suspect this means that the figures got manipulated. Perhaps it does not stop individuals from casting multiple votes?

I too would be interested in real numbers of Iyonix owners who want Select (I'm in the 'yeah, maybe, if it's not too expensive camp' sadly, being agnostic on Select's features). However, any questionnaire would need to be believable. This probably means either asking Castle to do it (unlikely?) or verifying Iyonix ownership by the voters somehow.

I would not encourage the latter as it might gather information sensitive to Castle's sales figures and I don't think we should do *anything* that might be detrimental to Castle's interests (or to RO Ltd's, I hasten to add).

TonyStill on 7/3/04 5:14PM
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TIB actually had 2 polls right after each other, one was the earliest version of RISC OS you use, one was the latest version. I didn't respond to either since it's completely impossible to answer the questions as someone who regularly uses both RISC OS Select and RISC OS 5.

illudium on 7/3/04 5:41PM
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drobe has never done polls, and is probably unlikely to start any time soon. TIB has shown just how pointless they are for getting exact information (and for polls with answers that aren't appropriate to everyone) - they're really only for talking points, which is why of course TIB does them (no, I'm not deprecating them).

The only people likely to be able to obtain a reasonably accurate answer to these questions are ROL and Castle.

mrchocky on 7/3/04 7:20PM
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Assume 4000 ROS4 rom buyers, 1000 VPC buyers, 1000 select subscribers, 500 iyonix owners, 250 of which also subscribe to Select. That's 750 Select users without Iyonix, of which assume 200 would buy Iyonix if it had Select.

Maybe 50% of the non Select owning Iyonix owners would want Select for Iyonix, that's 175.

So new Select subscribers would be 175, and new Iyonix owners 200.

Therefore Selyonix should be a join project paid for by both ROL and Castle.

So it will never happen

mavhc on 7/3/04 10:24PM
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When thinking about Select on Iyonix, what matters to folk like me is whether the select features offer sufficient usful functionlity on top of RO5 to be worth the likely cost. I've never had Select and have never missed it. RO5 already includes some Select features that were not in basic RO4, so its value is less on RO5 than on RO4 unless you really need those missing features. Personally I don't. New features are being added to RO5 all the time, some of these are missing Select features like wheel mouse support. So perhaps RO5 will eventualy include the other missing features too, whithout ROL being involved. And it will probably cost less that way too. If Select became available on RO5, I might buy it, but only if the additional featues over standard RO5 were worth the money to me. At present I'm not sufficiently convinced that they would be. I don't care about cosmetic improvements, and the functional ones will most likely eventually appear in RO5 (for free?) anyway. So I have to ask myself is an improved version of Paint (which I rarely use anyway) and some pretty icons worth a couple of hundred quid? So IMO it is questionable whether it would be worth ROL/CTL committing resources to developing Select on RO5, since it would have to cost at least as much as RO4 Select, with less advantage to most users. So I doubt that it will ever happen, but RO5 development is still ongoing, and might eventually become equivalent to Select in all but name.

mrtd on 8/3/04 9:08AM
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It took a long time to read the entire thread. First, I hope that the NetBook find the way home - it's a sad thing to lose such a machine - and, regarding the 'main' thread, I am neither a Select subscriber nor a Iyonix owner. In fact, I own a RO 3.7 SA machine, and don't even bother to upgrade to RO4 - 3.7 do all sort of things I need. But I think that I must comment. First, when Iyonix was a dream in CTL's heads, Select was all sorts of good. Update to the OS, stable, was everything RO can be. The choir was crying "BUY NOW!!". Now that the Iyonix is a (good) reality, people start saying that Select can be left behind, that it's not necessary to upgrade to it for some few additional features. I think it's not good for RO. Select subscribers pay for an up-to-date OS and suddenly the work done is thrashed ?! And now, for the emulation route. I am using Red Squirrel, that on my 1.8GHz P4 laptop is perfectly usable as a second RO machine. But, I would like an A5000/RPC emu for linux. Linux is more stable than Win. And, only for the sake of discussion, it would be so difficult eradicating the windows dependencies from the program? The less Win code, the more stable. And porting to other platforms will be easier. And now, start flaming, as I think it's worth to die for a principle...

bernie on 08/03/04 10:06AM
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I would love to have a version of VRPc for the Mac....and I have an Iyonix, and so there is no point in me subscribing to Select as my RiscPC hasn't been switched on for some time...

Eddie on 08/03/04 11:20AM
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I too would like to add my best wishes for the recovery of the netbook. Now, as this forum seems to have wandered way off subject - I'll add my thoughts to the current debate. Personaly my main interest in RISC OS is one of usability, so long as what is 'under the hood' does it's stuff in such a way as it doesn't bother me then that's fine with me. RISC OS is an amazing system in this regard.

I use a RiscPC running ROS 4 without Select. I'm now starting to consider some form of upgrade. The added user-side features of Select look highly attractive to me, it may seem strange to some of the more technicaly minded readers but Select seems to offer me the chance to do what I want in a simply and in a more attractive work environment, two things I greatly value.

That said I would like better hardware, the Iyonix looks ideal, yet there seems no way to get Select on the Iyonix - for the price they are asking (a lot on my limited budget) I want those bells and whistles. So at present Castle seem to be loosing out on my money.

VRPC is great in theory - get any of those fast, widely supported machines (yes I know ARM is better but I'm a user *not* a hardware enthusiast). Add all the ease of use and attractive GUI of RISC OS with the option of Select. Downside is that it relys on Windows with all the associated problems existing 'under the hood'. If my experience of enforced use of Windows 95,98,2k,ME *and* XP is anything to go by then this is not a good thing. I might endure this, yet it is far from ideal.

The two products that I would consider buying are: - Select on Iyonix, Ok so many people consider that this will never happen. Well then the RISC OS scene is missing out. - VRPC on a limited Linux based distro containing WINE designed to simply run RISC OS Essentialy this would allow users to operate RISC OS on what is now standard hardware *without* relying on Windows which in my opinion would be certainly a good thing.

anon/194.80.168.101 on 08/03/04 12:31AM
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I was pleased to see that the Netbook has been returned.

Will, I upgraded my RiscPC over the years as there was no alternative, but by the time you have spent out on Select, Viewfinder, Kinetic expansion, USB card, Network card, Oregano 2, new harddrive, more memory etc etc, (take your choice) then you are half way to the price of the Iyo.

For me the important bits were USB and Networking built in, much faster machine with bags of memory. I really haven't missed the Select features. (And Select takes forever to boot up too.)

Eddie on 08/03/04 4:27PM
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Not forever, when compared to a PC

I think the way forward for individuals depends on their finances. I can't afford an Iyonix yet, so I'm sticking with select (and buying the ROM - this will give me 3 select machines though, the 10 machine bit is very much in select's favour for me).

If the cost of an Iyonix were no problem, then I think the high spec machine, would have to win.

Whether to get select now and an Iyo in a year (say) depends, I think given current situation, on whether you would keep the RPC as a second machine or not.

I don't think the current situation w.r.to Iyonix owners who are subscribed to select is really fair. At the very least paint and draw should be available to them NOW.

jess on 08/03/04 5:12PM
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Jess> You've not quite understood how Select works I'm afraid. You can't just put Select's !Paint on a RISC OS 5 machine because it relies on a good number of the new features of Select, and bugfixes to other OS components which are still not fixed in RISC OS 5. Those fixes and new features, in turn, rely on kernel changes. David Ruck was so utterly wrong when he said that 99% of Select can run on RISC OS 5's kernel. Clearly diatribe and conjecture counts more than fact, these days.

imj on 08/03/04 6:23PM
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Well I can run select draw and paint on my iyonix under aemulor except that paint won't create alpha channel sprites which I don't use anyway.

anon/195.137.117.36 on 08/03/04 7:04PM
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Talking about facts.... Where is the list of kernel features and bug fixes that are needed?

It will be an endless situation if features and bug fixes block Select on the Iyonix and it's a secret what changes are actualy needed.

Jaco on 08/03/04 7:16PM
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All the kernel and userlevel changes are available to Select subscribers, the Select documentation bundle.

Chris. Just me.

diomus on 08/03/04 7:23PM
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What is the feasability of my second wish-list item? VRPC on minimal Linux with WINE. To my limited knowledge this seems doable, sellable and (for me) desirable.

anon/194.80.168.101 on 08/03/04 7:39PM
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"I can run select draw and paint on my iyonix" -- whoopty do.

Whoever you are, clearly doesn't even have the class to put a name to their comments. Poor.

You can "run Paint" - wowee. Great. Now try USING it. You'll find lots of the features don't work as they do under Select due to the missing OS features and bugfixes -- just as I said. You think I'm making it up that Paint needs Select features? Stop being so silly.

What's this facination with Iyonix users over Paint and Draw anyway? Got nothing better to run on that 600Mhz machine? ;-)

Seriously -- these wee user apps are hardly what makes an OS! If you don't see any value in having an OS with all the features of Select, then fair enough, you clearly don't make much use of the machine for anything other than posting anonymous comments to websites...

imj on 08/03/04 7:39PM
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What do we need from Select that Risc-OS 5 does not have? I haven't seen Select and couldn't find anything interesting on their page.

Jaco on 08/03/04 8:18PM
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Actually the Iyonix site is a bit clearer and says these features are in Select and not in Risc-OS 5:

CDFS supporting Joliet long filenames JPEG export from !Paint Filer sort by number and lowercase PNG support Multi User support CMYK sprite handling True translucent sprite plotting Alpha channel sprites AppleTalk networking in ROM AppleTalk networks your machine to Apple Macs Rounded buttons possible in windows Attempting to delete !Boot gives a warning Thumbnailing in Filer Recycle bin Cut and paste in icons

Of course they list a lot more features that are in Risc-OS 5 and not in Select.

Being the Iyonix site I'm sure they've missed some Select features. Please react.

Jaco on 08/03/04 8:34PM
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CDFS supporting Joliet long filenames -- CDROMFS JPEG export from !Paint -- CFSI Filer sort by number and lowercase -- don't really care PNG support -- spr2png etc, like jpeg, obviously slower to do than having native support Multi User support -- don't care, quite a few 3rd party PD progs do similar CMYK sprite handling -- don't need it True translucent sprite plotting -- don't care Alpha channel sprites -- don't care AppleTalk networking in ROM -- Who uses AppleTalk anyway now, do Apple? AppleTalk networks your machine to Apple Macs -- ditto Rounded buttons possible in windows -- don't care Attempting to delete !Boot gives a warning -- don't care Thumbnailing in Filer -- Thump Recycle bin -- don't care, plenty of 3rd party PD Cut and paste in icons -- !Writable

Any more usful features in Select?

mavhc on 08/03/04 9:11PM
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Another question is should all those utillities be included in the OS? I think that the answer to most in the list is a yes. For me anyway.

anon/212.159.89.126 on 08/03/04 10:58PM
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These "don't care" lists in response to OS features really, to be frank, piss me off. Just because you personally have no use for them, doesn't mean they aren't worth anything. The Select feature list is quite long and different people will find different things useful, get over yourself. You could do this with any god damn OS - OS5, OS4, Select, MacOSX, Windows, you name: every feature will look crap on their own, it's how the OS gels the features together into a coherent, consistent and stable experience for the end user.So what, people find different things useful, fan-fucking-tastic.

Shut up, go away, come back with some kind of useful, justified comment.

Chris. Just me.

diomus on 08/03/04 11:27PM
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No it's your turn to come up with useful, justified comments. That was a list of all know (to us) features that select has over Risc-OS 5. It's too poor for Marc and me to have Select on our wish list.

So convince us.. why should we want Select?

Jaco on 09/03/04 08:06AM
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Because it's much nicer to have all of that integrated into the OS, instead of using a random hotch-potch of third party apps? And how many of the ones mavhc lists as "don't care" does he really not care about, or would quite like, but doesn't particularly miss? There is a difference there (even more of one if you accidentally delete your !Boot!)

Whether or not you think that lot is worth spending your money on is your call, but it seems rather sad to be so dismissive (or defensive?) of it.

SimonC on 09/03/04 10:30AM
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The RISCOS Ltd version of the Select/Iyonix feature comparison is here BTW: [link]

illudium on 09/03/04 10:49AM
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I wouldn't concern yourself with what mav says, one way or another, it's just usual troll material.

It _is_ hard to tie down the useful features of Select, and despite being subscriber #1, I'm not in any hurry to push what I see as the useful features on others. That's ROL's job. For me, the most useful discrete feature is the considerable enhancements to Paint. But here's the catch - Paint in Select relies on considerably more other modules than it does in previous OSes - PNG and JPEG handling enhancements, colour handling, and other stuff I'm not even aware of. And yes, those mythical low level changes made all this possible - and made them possible in a timely manner.

That's not to say that it couldn't be moved to RISC OS 5, via various methods, just that what would have to be moved would be considerable, and in cases I can only further guess at, non-trivial. But then, OS development itself is very non-trivial too, regardless of what's being done.

mrchocky on 09/03/04 10:53AM
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It's not my job or role to convince you of anything, I just present fact. You've already made up your mind and that's fair enough - the point is, your opinion is just that, your opinion and everyone's entitled to one. The whole routine of picking apart an OS' feature list smacks of "it's my party and I'll cry if I want to" syndrome.

Chris. Just me.

diomus on 09/03/04 3:19PM
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mavhc's such a stupid old goat. A list of RO 5 features which Select doesn't gave could also be listed and picked apart in the same pointless way. eg "PCI - don't need it, no PCI in my RiscPC" ... "HAL - don't need it, I only run RISC OS on my RiscPC" ... "USB - don't need it, I have no USB devices, or I can get a USB podule" ... down to totally stupid things like "Display Manager icon matches the configured monitor - I can draw my own icon, I only have one monitor anyway". It's futile and pointless. Nobody will need all the OS features, and many features depend on the hardware you happen to have or the machine it's run on, so stop with this bloody stupid feature-for-feature bitching.

If the features provided by Castle are most important to you, buy an Iyonix. If the features provided by ROL are important to you, buy Select.

Clearly there's a random clutch of apps that can act as some kind of substitute for Select features on RO 5, so people *do* appear to have a use for these features! Likewise, USB podules, IDE podules and new monitor icons can be added to Select machines, or you can get lots more speed by running it on a PC.

What about the features of other OS that neither RO 5 or Select has, such as preemptive multitasking, concurrent multiuser support, hardware accelerated graphics with media support, 3D graphics, software RAID, hibernation support, Bluetooth, Firewire, USB 2.0, the list goes on forever. Do we not want those in RISC OS ? Unpicking feature lists gains nothing.

If you don't give a donkey about using a modern OS, continue to use your A3000/BBC/ZX81/PDP11 whatever does it for you.

imj on 09/03/04 4:19PM
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imj: "If you don't give a donkey about using a modern OS, continue to use your A3000/BBC/ZX81/PDP11 whatever does it for you."

Or RISC OS on your Iyonix. ;-)

(Read that in the context of the previous paragraph.)

But AppleTalk support? Is that there to make time-travel missions back to the early 1990s more bearable, or what?

guestx on 09/03/04 5:31PM
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Below is a list of the main things we do on our RISC OS machines. We have a RISC OS network at home a Psion Netbook is the only non-RISC OS machine that makes use of it. I take digital photos and transfer them to my hard drive via USB and print photos using Gimp-Print. We maintain a website using Webgen2, HTML3 and StrongEd manipulating images using Artworks DPlngScan and Photodesk and JCut. We email, read newsgroups, browse the net, download software and chat via IRC. I watch TV on my Iyonix and listen to music files via DigitalCD. We read and write documents, and arrange music using Sibelius. We organise our lives with Organizer.

Perhaps an unanswerable question but here goes; which aspects of the current Select feature set would directly enhance what we already do (currently using RO4 and RO5 daily)?

blahsnr on 09/03/04 7:00PM
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"What about the features of other OS that neither RO 5 or Select has, such as preemptive multitasking, concurrent multiuser support, hardware accelerated graphics with media support, 3D graphics, software RAID, hibernation support, Bluetooth, Firewire, USB 2.0, the list goes on forever. Do we not want those in RISC OS?"

Yes please. Those are cool features.

BTW talking about "don't care" lists Selects comparison list has one "don't care": Unicode font system N Y For alphabets with > 256 characters/glyphs (we mostly speak English)

Thanks for the link, it's good to have lists from both sides.

Jaco on 09/03/04 8:02PM
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BTW -NTP in !Alarm-, -filenames as seen from Unix- and -Ctrl-C, Ctrl-V to cut and paste between applications- are nice features in Select and not in RO5 (although Ctrl-insert, Shift-insert would be better choices as Ctrl-C is needed to be transparant in terminals to Unix)

The Clib as in RO5 can be downloaded from Castle for older OSes too.

Jaco on 09/03/04 8:24PM
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!Alarm has Network Time Setting -- useful if your clock is always wrong. I always thought the OS clock should be able to be reset from the hardware clock too. ANT Suite has a util to set time, and there's free versions.

ZeroConfig Internet Setup -- useful for beginners, is this the same as in Windows uses too?

Ethernet Settings can be changed without requiring a reboot. -- finally this has been added to configure. Was it just Acorn being lazy before?

Direct Share option for all filing systems and individual directories. -- seems useful, how does this work, drag to Sharefs window?

RISC OS machine acts as DNS Server -- handy.

Image File Rendering System -- probably my favourite thing in Select, if just for the concept. What programs make use of this? It does seem to conflict with the ImageFS way of solving a similar problem though.

Sprite re-ordering in !Paint -- PaintFS does this IIRC, but much easier it being in Paint.

SpriteExtend supporting 1:2 sampled JPEGs/EXIF -- Was this the patch released on the newsgroups?

PNG Import to !Draw -- Does Draw keep them as PNG files or are they converted to sprites?

SVG Export from !Paint -- I assume that should be !Draw, similar situation to PNGs and JPEGs

Local flood fill with 'transparent' in !Paint -- Yay

Sprites11 support -- Would work well with very high res desktops as seen on Iyonix

Graphics filtering/conversions -- ImageFS or something else?

Generic fast Image Viewer -- Very useful.

Any filetype supported by IFR as Backdrops -- I have windows covering my desktop

!Paint and !Draw support saving of choices -- isn't there a ROS4 configure plugin for this? Useful if you don't want to edit config files by hand.

Euro currency symbol - The Castle Docs say symbol is at &80 (128) whereas in fact it is at &A4(164) as in RISC OS 4. -- What does that mean? Where's my tick symbol?

Hi res teletext MODE 7 N Y Twice normal resolution - (who uses Mode 7 anymore though.) Unicode font system N Y For alphabets with > 256 characters/glyphs (we mostly speak English) -- aka "I don't need it", "I don't care"

DOSFS handles disc titles properly -- I assume Castle are referring to 1 letter disk labels/titles

Full technical documentation available Y N Many calls in 5 are not documented e.g Wimp_Ext 13 -- [link] . Now where can I see Select documention?

FileSwitch now able to reference path variables through $ Y N e.g Music:$ for <Music$Path> -- What does the filer display, just the files from the first dir in the path?

Built in support for CD Database -- Like CDViewer CDFS supporting Joliet long filenames -- CDROMFS CDFS supporting RockRidge long filenames -- There a patch for CDFS to do this Mimemap now used for Filetype conversions -- very useful

Scroll wheel mice -- Is support in Select still better than in ROS5 now? Active highlighting of selected files when dragging. -- useful Re-organisable Window Furniture -- Now when I come round to fix your computer I won't be able to use it, yay. Seems to be making it possible to make RISC OS more like Windows Refresh option on Filer -- very useful All standard applications now support the Universal Clipboard. -- very useful, although I prefer the instant copy/move/delete, it's quicker.

Updated Advanced Configuration plugins -- 1001 configuration options, all with the same shaped sprites, bad UI choice.

Hardware Profiles -- might be useful, just seems to be making !Boot even more complicated. Of course Middleton doesn't want users editting things inside !Boot. I prefer a pre Uniboot structure, 1 Tasks dir, 1 Predesk dir, 1 System modules dir. I don't need to support multiple OS versions on my computer, it just means I have to search 2/3/4/5 different dirs for the file I want.

mavhc on 09/03/04 10:46PM
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Hi Guys, The entry I was writing disappeared, so apologies if I repeat myself, if I repeat myself, if I ...

As I was saying, in my case at least, it is not always cost which is the over-riding factor. When acorn announced The Clan, I subscribed. When The RiscOs Academy was announced, I subscribed. When RiscOS Ltd stated that RON would appear on the Netbook, I bought a Netbook ready. When I bought a set of 4.02 ROMs for my RPC, I bought an extra set for a second RPC I had lying around, while at the same time, I also subscribed to Select. 2 years or so down the track: I use the Netbook, but not as much as I would if RON had materialised; The second set of 4.02 roms lie idle (my fault, I know); I have learn't nothing from the Risc Academy as the stuff I wanted has still not been written though I don't worry about this as I feel instead that I have supported someone who supports RiscOS in a more active way than I have or probably ever will; The 3 CDs of Select have never been installed because on trying, the software did not like my boot structure and exited with no options available and I have not found time to install a clean boot file and try again. Several months ago, I bought VA5000 and have used this a lot on an Acer 3gHz 17" laptop for all sorts of things - its indispensible. Feeling that I have moved too early in the past. I have with-held from buying either an Iyonyx or an Omega (which I feel is a viable alternative for someone who's not in a rush). More important issues for me is the limitations of ROS based web browsers which give me problems with various scripts on websites, so that I sometimes have to use windows to do what I want. For this reason, I shall be supporting the Peter Naulls Unix Porting Project which is the best way to futureproof ROS as far as I can see without shedding out huge amounts of money for an Ionyx which will not even let me plug in my Videodesk card (please correct me if I'm mistaken). I'll look at Select to see if it will allow me to view long file names on a PC network and I've ordered a Viewfinder card until I can justify a new machine for reasons other than offering support to ROS which has been my main motivator in the past and which has been superceded by a strict 'what do I want' approach.

anon/144.137.31.164 on 10/03/04 08:32AM
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For me, my pet hate on RISC OS is the whole internet experience. Where is support for the latest flash?; where is the support for the latest Java; what about video/audio formats like Real Audio and Window Media Player. All this nice upates to the OS via Select (for which I do subscribe) are very well, but I'm still waiting for the apps, as listed above that will enable me to permanently switch my Windows XP box off. Instead of losing my PC, I'm now going to put my RPC away in favour of using VRPC on my XP machine.

sa110 on 10/03/04 3:10PM
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The same place the support for Acorn replay files, adfs discs, filetypes, impression publisher files etc are in Windows.

mavhc on 10/03/04 5:19PM
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VRPC springs into mind mavhc. we don't have any virtual windows xp machines on RISC OS tho.

sa110 on 10/03/04 6:04PM
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So you'd be willing to pay 150ukps or whatever for flash/java/ra/wmp?

mavhc on 10/03/04 9:36PM
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mavhc Seems like a snip at ukp150 having spent something like ukp500 in the last few years on copies of RO4 and Select subs to see very little benefit to me personally (from my individual standpoint).

Only a couple of years ago there was much talk (especially in the RISC OS community) about how MS were integrating all sorts of things into their 'operating system' that were previously provided by third parties, the allegations being that this was killing competition in the Windows apps market.

It is ironic that people seem to think now that integrating the functionality previously provided by third party add ons, is how an OS should be built, work and be marketed.

However there will always be a need for patches to make an OS/GUI work the way users want as no OS /GUI can satisfy all the needs and wants of all of the users.

blahsnr on 11/03/04 09:53AM
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If lots of people were willing to pay that much it seems likely that something would appear.

The work Acorn and WSS did for Replay for ROS4 really needs finishing. It was a way to allow video decoders to output to Replay without having to mess about with the image filesystem route. There's no standard for playing video on RISC OS anymore, we have Replay, Cino, Kino(amp), Cineroma.

The Flash specs are freely available for anyone who wants to write a player, and apparently the realvideo codecs are free for r&d and 25c/unit for commercial use, they're probably worried about MS's wmv format so want it working on all sorts of portable devices.

CLI java stuff seems ok, but the RISC OS specific parts are a lot of work.

mavhc on 11/03/04 1:13PM
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So how much would it cost to bring the latest version of Java to RISC OS? Answers on a postcard.......

sa110 on 11/03/04 7:59PM
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In reply to Paul Stewart: You'd need a big postcard to fit all the zeros in. I can't remember the exact figure, but I know it cost Acorn a *lot* of money to licence the old version they used, which is why they didn't renew the licence when a later version was needed.

apdl on 12/03/04 08:08AM
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Oi !

What have you got against Paul's surname (won't repeat it in case it does it again).

apdl on 12/03/04 08:09AM
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Alternatively, people could help on ChoX11, so we can bring the Kaffe AWT up.

mrchocky on 12/03/04 09:47AM
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Bearing in mind we need to get Kaffe threading working properly first. (unless you know something I don't)

illudium on 12/03/04 09:54AM
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They're welcome to help on that too ;-)

mrchocky on 12/03/04 10:17AM
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Peter, David, If I were a programmer, I'd be helping all i could.

sa110 on 12/03/04 7:09PM
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David, if you need that much money just to license it, i guess it will never appear.

sa110 on 12/03/04 7:11PM
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