druck
9/4/04 8:43PM |
For Select 4 its going to be a case of; no 32 bits, no renewal. |
dgs
9/4/04 9:27PM |
I'll second that... there's no point spending more money on my (literally) mouldy RiscPC.
But does that mean that we don't subscribe to Select 4 until a version for the Iyonix is actually demonstrated, actually shipped, or what?
dgs |
markee174
9/4/04 9:45PM |
RIscOS said that if people didn't continue to support Select, an Iyonix version would never happen. I've paid my money for one year, but I'm unlikely to do it for a second.... |
ksattic
9/4/04 10:03PM |
My RiscPC doesn't get much use now, but I'll be resubscribing to Select because I want the additions for the Iyonix. It's also good to have the latest OS on my RiscPC for when I do use it. |
druck
9/4/04 10:04PM |
A firm comitment to deliver a substantial proportion of the current Select feature set within in the next year, would be enough for me to sign up again.
However more provaracation, vague musings or implausable technical excuses, and its the end of the line for ROL as far as I'm concerned.
Cheers
---Dave |
diomus (+1.0)
9/4/04 11:13PM |
In reply to druck:
With the space in the market opened by VirtualRiscPC (which seems as ever popular as the Iyonix these days, what with the recent push by dealers to package up their own VRPC-WinXP systems), I can't see it being the end of the line for ROL for some time. Even if VRPC users don't opt to upgrade to Select/Adjust, ROL should be getting royalties from the copies of ROS4 shipped with VRPC.
Just a personal observation, of course.
Chris. Just me. |
druck
9/4/04 11:36PM |
Royalty sales from RO4 to emulatiors (and I cant see many who dont have a current RISC OS machine wanting Select, as it s isn't necessary to run old software), will not sustain development of the operating system - thats what counts. |
imj (+1.5)
10/4/04 12:29AM |
You're really suggesting that people buying new A6's and RISC Cubes etc only want to "run old software" ? Get real. If you don't want to keep up with recent OS developments, that's your choice, but do stop your continued ranty chant of "end of the line for ROL" as that really is just being silly. We're aware from your continued boasting on the newsgroups that fast cars, sat nav, big monitors etc are your bag - "bigger, faster" sums it up for you it seems - enjoy that 600Mhz XScale, sure, but there's a hell of a lot of us who can quite happily stick with a 200Mhz ARM (or much faster emulation) and get the benefit of the undeniably richer features running there. It's quite a shame that you appear to have become too jaded and stubborn to see that. |
druck
10/4/04 1:17AM |
jmj, please read my comment more carefully. My point is people coming to the emulator after a number years away from RISC OS are not likely to bring in any new Select subscriptions. Those with emulators in addition or even replacing a RISC OS machine, may well continue their subscription, but thats not the issue.
The situation is a very large percentage of Select subscribers now have 32 bit machines, and if they do not renew, Select development will be unstanable. That is a fact from ROL's own break even figures.
ROL cannot rely on emulators and the dwindling number of 26bit native hardware owners to fund future developments. A 32 bit operating system supporting the latest hardware and interface standards is the only way to sustain a viable future. |
imj (+1.5)
10/4/04 2:27AM |
Oh stop your sniding at ROL, it's just boring now. You've turned from RISC OS advocate in to a "me too" whingebucket on that matter. Give it a rest.
I don't believe that the majority of sales of "Hybrid" machines are to folks who have been "away from RISC OS" as you put it -- for many, it's the logical step up from a RiscPC they already have -- they get some good speed improvements and can run Windows software as required. For some, as a laptop, it'll be a 2nd machine to their RiscPC.
Iyonix owners aren't badgering CTL anywhere near enough and CTL don't, themselves, want ROL to even exist as far as I can see. With CTL pushing against ROL producing a whole OS (and face it, you're plain WRONG about "most" of Select not requiring kernel changes, so odds and sods of Select addons on top of RO5 are out of the question) there's simply not going to be an Iyonix Select. CTL are the ones you need to convince that a Select for Iyonix should happen. ROL are (ttbomk) ready. Got a statement from CTL to prove otherwise? I'm sure ROL would love to see it  |
dgs
10/4/04 3:17AM |
In reply to imj:
Most people I know who own a Windows laptop with the VRPC emulator, own it as a second machine to their Iyonix.
I'm an Iyonix owner and a current Select subscriber. Sorry, you're telling me whether I'm "badgering CTL anywhere near enough or not" ? I'm so sorry.
You buy the products, you make the demands, if you want to.
"Speak for yourself" is the phrase that springs to mind.
Which Iyonix owners are you speaking for?
There's a great deal of wildly optimistic talk about Virtual RiscPC sales (much of it by dealers with a stake in it), I've yet to see it backed by facts, figures, or substantial numbers of real live users.
dgs |
Oliveyrc (-1.1)
10/4/04 10:01AM |
safd |
jess
10/4/04 10:38AM |
In reply to imj:
Whether the bulk of select would be easy to get going on Iyonix, some would be. That should be made available to Iyonix owners asap.
In reply to druck:
I doubt that many people would buy a hybrid or even VRPC just to run old software, VA5000 would do a big proportion of old software for a fraction of the price. Hybrids are likely to be bought by those who would otherwise jump ship entirely or would keep an existing acorn alongside a new PC.
It would make sense for a new VRPC supplied with adjust to be produced. |
AndrewDuffell
10/4/04 10:50AM |
What happens when Select4 is released? Do the ROMs get reflashed or something? or so we go back to softloads again? |
cynic
10/4/04 11:45AM |
It appears to me that it isn't an all or nothing issue with Select features for Iyonix.
A committment from ROL to produce what they can and work on what is possible should be more than enough to keep many Iyonix users on board.
I'm sure CTL could do their bit helping tpo make this happen - after all a good number of people say they are waiting for 32 bit Select features before replacing their RPCs.
It seems to me that, if the players could see it, its a win/win situation. ROL sell more subscriptions and CTL sell more machines. Unless, of course, CTL really do have that notebook RO5 machine waiting in the wings and expect to finally kill off RO4 by having the best hardware all round. |
Mart
10/4/04 12:16PM |
Why as an 'Adjust' punter do I have to read that the ROMs are being deliverd after Easter? There is nothing (last time I looked) on the ROL website and I have have zero communications from ROL. This lack of communication is what is driving people away from RiscOS! |
imj
10/4/04 12:29PM |
Andrew Duffell> "What happens when Select4 is released" ? You get softloads, yep. Note that the ROM is called "Adjust" which is quite distinct from the "Select" softload and subscription. Will ROL make an "Adjust 2" ROM release? I guess that's up to ROL, the demand from users, and sales of Adjust 1. Select will always be more "up to date" than Adjust, though - that's the nature of softloads.
In reply to jess:
"Select".."Some"..."That should be made available to Iyonix owners asap" ... care to suggest what is worth ROL's while releasing to Iyonix owners that doesn't require core changes? I can't think of much, myself. Select is an operating system. A whole. Not just a few bits of apps and modules sat on top of it.
I'd put it another way: CTL "should make available" all the documentation on their hardware, and provide the drivers, so that ROL have a sane chance of making an Iyonix Select. AIUI, they don't want to do that, sadly. |
dgs
10/4/04 12:36PM |
In reply to Mart:
The info is from RISCOS Ltd newsletter number 30. I guess these still only go out to Foundation subscribers, so if you're not a Foundation subscriber then you might not have got one...
dgs |
jess
10/4/04 12:37PM |
Paint and draw would be an obvious starting point for Iyonix users. It would presumably need the png etc handling of select put in a module, (saying that it probably is a module in the select "ROM") |
md0u80c9
10/4/04 1:20PM |
In reply to jess:
it's really not that simple. New paint uses PNG support. PNG support relies upon the ImgConvert modules, which in turn rely upon colour blend, which in turn rely upon kernel changes.
There are very few 'stand alone' component changes, except the toolbox which ROL have released as free updates anyway. |
jonix
10/4/04 1:56PM |
In reply to imj:
does the information in the TRM for the Iyonix and the Iyonix website not provide enough low level information? |
imj
10/4/04 4:24PM |
Paint uses a hell of a lot more than just "PNG support" from Select. Features I can think of OTTOMH are the almighty amount of changes to SpriteExtend for CMYK and Alpha sprites (also required to load PNGs properly), cross-depth mask plotting, mask promotion, the whole ImageFileConvert subsystem, PNG modules, JPEG module fixes, etc (that's a LOT of stuff), Changes to colourtrans for plotting fonts in low-colour modes and to masks, proper mouse wheel support, fixed colourpicker, and iirc, even the Homerton.Bold.Oblique intmetrics were wrong and causing plotting errors. Some of the fixes and extensions I've mentioned also require lower-level changes to other modules and the kernel.
Oh, and md0u80c9, PNG support doesn't "rely on the IFC modules", tt's the other way around -- The ConvertPNG module uses the PNG module to provide image file conversion functions.  Paint also /doesn't/ use the toolbox modules.
I think it's a bit sad that jess and JWB seem to think Paint and Draw are worthy things to get from Select on their own - they're not - they're just little sample applications, really - most of the work is done by the OS.
It's the fact I can just dump an ArtWorks file or BMP etc on Paint or Draw and it "just works" without me having to be concerned further that is the power of Select - that's the OS doing the work, not the apps. |
nijinsky
10/4/04 4:59PM |
I think md0u80c9 might know a thing or two about ROL. I also think he may know a lot about the RISC OS kernel, OS, etc etc. Perhaps a lot more than most if not all people here. I DO know that for a fact.
PS md0u80c9 are you finished with the Dr. studies.
Cheers
Dr. Bob |
The Doctor
10/4/04 5:19PM |
I suspect you'll also find that IMJ also knows rather a lot RISC OS too.
Cheers! |
TonyStill
10/4/04 5:50PM |
Normal commercial practice is that a business makes a proposition: It offers a defined good or service for a defined price, then it waits to see what response the market makes.
Which is a long-winded way of asking why RO Ltd don't offer for sale those bits of Select that do work on RO5/Iyonix at a price that makes it worth their while ('cos clearly it's not going to be no work to do this). I expect it could be quite a lot of functionality (RO Ltd declared several years ago that all their developments were 26/32-bit neutral so that updated Sprite Extend, for example, should be usable).
They might be able to justify a similar price to an Adjust ROM (less the physical device) - after all, they're in a monopoly-supply position. This would be significant revenue if the expected number of Iyonix owners then bought-in to Select.
I desperately want someone to hold out an Olive Branch in this silly split of RO. Facing facts, RO Ltd have most to lose from the split (IMHO) so they might do well to act first and hence gain sympathy. |
AMS
11/4/04 1:05PM |
"Tony"
The inference from what Ian has said is that there are independancies between the various "visible" applications, their functionality and the modified kernel. What Ian says seems reasonable, there may be more involved in transferring some apps across to RO5 from Select. If that is the case then simply picking selected bits of Select and grafting them onto RO5 may be a non-starter.
Perhaps an alternative may work, as ROL (and its programmers) have considerable expertise in the OS, perhaps they could release other (new) products that build on what they learned in developing Select (a bit like Microsofts Windows Plus packs) - not so much a whole replacement OS - but a tweakable GUI, with some useful visual and functional additions made. Surely that could be done without requiring kernel access to OS 5 ? It would get ROL's and its developers money and keep some degree of coherence on the ROS platform - if not (I fear) the gap may become unbridgable and we'll wind up with Select specific and RO5 specific code and we'll all lose out.
Regards
Annraoi |
md0u80c9
11/4/04 4:03PM |
In reply to imj:
my understanding was that ConvertPNG was used by Paint to convert the PNG into a sprite for editing. I'm certain there are dependencies which go the other way around too; in many ways that highlights the problem for everyone else even more!!! I was trying to be very brief; I think your somewhat longer summary does the situation far more justice though!!!!!
I also didn't say it /did/ use toolbox, although I can see how it was misconstrued (Paint predating the Toolbox massively et al!). What I said was that toolbox was the only component I could name which doesn't rely vastly upon other module changes. Even then, many Toolbox problems could be resolved if it /could/ rely upon Wimp changes, for example.
Regarding the ROM release, remember that Adjust and Select have always been billed as 'different' projects. Adjust is primarily intended for people who, for various reasons, cannot boot from softloads, and therefore are not covered by the Select programme. It's also a way of replacing the aged RISC OS 4 ROM set with progress so far - it's a good way of phasing out OS 4. If you look back at the changelog, you can see why it's a good idea to change the base OS to 3i4!!! |
md0u80c9
12/4/04 1:01AM |
Hmm - last paragraph directed at other posters, not IMJ of course, who is well aware of this |
hzn
12/4/04 9:10AM |
I just love the marketing of RISCOS Ltd: "For those of you wondering where your RISC OS Adjust (aka RISC OS 4.39) orders are, RISCOS Ltd. today told Foundation subscribers that..."
My main question here is why does RISCOS Ltd not tell news like this to the public but just to Foundation subscribers (and probably Select subscribers). As a matter of fact, why don't they talk to IYONIX users which are not Foundation or Select subscribers so that they can learn what those users want as Select features on RISC OS 5?
But perhaps they don't want to offer anything to the users who do not subscribe to Foundation or Select  |
md0u80c9
12/4/04 1:51PM |
Announcements are /always/ picked up by the RISC OS press; with Drobe around you wouldn't need to tell everyone, would you? I'm sure Drobe would have been well aware of this too - Chris has extremely sensitive ears for hearing news .
The rest of your post is really stating the obvious - that businesses provide goods to customers who in return give them money. Gosh. |
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