Firefox first beta published | Drobe.co.uk archives

Firefox first beta published

By Chris Williams. Published: 20th Jun 2005, 13:46:25 | Permalink | Printable

Get it while it's hot

The first public beta version of the RISC OS Firefox port is now available for download.

This much anticipated release weighs in at a 9.5M download. According to developer Peter Naulls, "it is important that you read the instructions fully before trying to run Firefox for RISC OS, otherwise failure may result. This is beta software, and represents ongoing development and has a number of bugs. Please read the notes about bug reporting in the !Help."

Work began on the Firefox port some time ago, and after a number of cash pledges from end users, Peter uploaded the beta version earlier today. We've since learnt that it was James Shaw who pledged the cash that pushed Peter's 'Pledge-o-Meter' to 100%.

James commented, "The Firefox port demonstrates that heavyweight graphical applications can be adapted for RISC OS. I can only guess at the technical difficulties Peter had to address, but it can't have been easy."

Recognising the efforts made by fellow programmers, who contributed to his port, Peter added, "New subscriptions to the project in the next 30 days will be donated to developers who made this project possible."

Links

First beta Firefox download for RISC OS Peter Naulls is a drobe.co.uk writer

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Discussion

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1st post, from an A9home, running the FireFox beta :P

adrianl on 20/6/05 2:15PM
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... and here's one from a VARPC-Adjust laptop, also running the beta. Well done Peter for your hard work - truly impressive; I never thought I'd see the day... keep up the good work!

hutchies on 20/6/05 2:52PM
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YAY

great news...

ROHC on 20/6/05 2:52PM
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I would say I'd take my hat off to Peter, but it simply wouldn't do him and the other developers involved, justice. Amazingly, the gulf between Oregano2 and Firefox isn't as large as I expected, speed-wise. Plus, I now have quite a choice of browsers to use on my iyonix. Great stuff!

jmcarey on 20/6/05 2:56PM
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Fantastic news! RISC OS can show its face in the big wide world once more with a browser that is truly of world-class standard.

I'm at work until 10pm tonight, but I want to go home *now* and play with Firefox! Grr...

tamias on 20/6/05 3:37PM
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Excellent news! And on the day I eventually got broadband installed :-)

Many thanks Peter (and the others).

liquid on 20/6/05 4:43PM
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Yes, well done! Hopefully the people who rudely accused Peter Naulls (and the UPP) of not delivering will reconsider their position.

It will be interesting to see the difference in speed in using FireFox on a SA RiscPC compared with an A9Home or Iyonix. Could anyone be kind enough to put a test together? Hopefully the results would provide an insentive for people to upgrade to new hardware now that we have software that will make the most of it.

fylfot on 20/6/05 5:01PM
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It works really nicely on my Iyonix. RISC OS is a premier platform for the Internet again!

markee174 on 20/6/05 5:50PM
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Firefox doesn't yet run properly on OS 3.7, but it is *just possible* to persuade it to give you the initial main window (before it crashes). What amazes me most is that it is able to multitask (just) while initialising. How Peter got multithreading working, I just don't know. Good work!

Hertzsprung on 20/6/05 7:57PM
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As I just commented on OSNews, who linked to this story...

I have just returned from tonight's meeting of the RISC OS User Group of London where Peter Naulls gave a talk & demonstrated Firefox in action on RISC OS. It's very impressive & can already outdo any other RISC OS browser, although it also rivals any for speed - it's usable, even on an 11yr old RISC PC, bit it's slow by Acorn standards.

I was interested by the comments of some of the crowd. There was an audible gasp when he revealed that it used ~30M of RAM - an awesome amount on RISC OS, a platform with no VM.

Some of the questions also seemed to reveal widespread ignorance of the significance of this - bringing the huge wealth of GPL xNix S/W to RISC OS. RISC OS is a tiny platform - I think sales of the new Iyonix & Omega hardware plus the latest OS for older machines only amount to a few thousand in total. (There are also PCs sold as semi-dedicated Acorn emulators, which might add significantl more - I've not seen figres.) So the app portfolio is small, tho' of high quality. This potentially expands it by many orders of magnitude; it's a really big deal. But Acorn users neither know nor care what Linux is, what open source means or any of that.

If the Unix Porting Project gets to the stage where it can bring a complete free app bundle to RISC OS, that would make it a more attractive platform for usors... But a less attractive one for developers. And that's fatal, long term.

Perhaps, though, it might foster a market for smaller faster native RISC OS apps as an alternative?

Either way, it inspires me to get my old Acorn out of the attic & resurrect it!

lproven on 21/6/05 2:20AM
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Earlier tonight a packed house at ROUGOL saw Peter demo Firefox on a StrongARM RiscPC running Select. Slow, but it got into every site shouted out by the audience and tested after the talk, and all without a crash. Not bad for beta software! Peter sold out of CDs in minutes :-)

The crowd also had the amusement of watching Keith and I cannabalise three RicPCs to make one of high enough spec to run Firefox! Now typing this using Firefox on an Omega. Still slow, but bearable, and could be useful for those particularly bad javascript heavy sites. And it is only going to get better :-)

Thanks again Peter.

helpful on 21/6/05 2:21AM
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Oi Liam, what are you doing still up at this time of night! Your comment got in while I was typing mine, which shows one of the glitches in the current version of Firefox - text entry is strangely slow. Rather than getting your old Acorn out, I'm sure we had enough bits left over at the end of the meeting to build another RiscPC ;-)

helpful on 21/6/05 2:30AM
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What fantastic news. I love Firefox, now it's on our favorite platform :-)

Well done to Peter and everyone involved.

sascott on 21/6/05 2:32AM
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Yup. On Iyonix here. Nice.

hexa0503 on 21/6/05 2:58AM
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Great news! Congratulations to Peter and the team. Where do I pay the pledge? Checked the Firefox page but it deals with subscriptions to the porting project.

rmac on 21/6/05 4:41AM
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Has anyone tried installing the MenuX extension to move the menu bar to a context menu?

https://addons.mozilla.org/extensions/moreinfo.php?id=786&application=firefox

Integrates nicely on ROX, so should instantly make !Firefox more RISC OS-ey.

Jaffa on 21/6/05 8:32AM
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Jaffa: I haven't yet managed to install *any* extensions. They download ok but will not run. Is it even possible in the beta?

helfpul: on my Iyonix there isn't a noticeable time difference between text entry in Firefox, and typing into a NetSurf text box.

tamias on 21/6/05 9:00AM
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lproven , the only way developers will be unattracted to the RiscOS platform because of the unix porting project is if every single application is provided by that project. I think we can safely say that's not going to happen. The project will result in some applications that will attract non RiscOS users, in particular PC users. This is especially so with Firefox which now allows RiscOS users to view all sites (so far) the same as everybody else. An issue I always believed was one of RiscOS's biggest problems. The next one is DVD playing. Third would be music playing although DigitalCD is almost there it just needs the playlist editing re-vamped a bit. We can read Word files so that's OK. I doubt the direct reading of Excel files would be needed to attract Mr+Mrs Average PC user. It's the multimedia and internet stuff. Video plug-ins for Firefox is probably another biggy that's needed.

Hopefully Firefox can be persuaded to be a bit nippier on a StrongArm RiscPC. I suspect there are some basic speed gains somewhere given that typing into the entry bar is quite slow. It would be quite impressive to have a moderm multimedia+internet functionality on a 10 year old (very cheap!) RiscPC.

Keep up the good work Peter.

mripley on 21/6/05 9:06AM
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Well, it certainly seems to be popular. Got in last night, saw the announcements, and tried to download it, but couldn't even get onto the website with Oregano2. I guess it was a bit busy. I could have done with it too, since a friend had sent me a link to a national newspaper article about his work that crashed Oregano! But well done Peter!. I'll have another go tonight.

mrtd on 21/6/05 9:07AM
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Installed and running on my Iyonix. Well done Peter et al for all your hard work, much appreciated.

Bassy on 21/6/05 9:25AM
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In reply to mrtd: Could you show me the link for the Oregano crashing article (Pretty much an easy thing to do if you know how to fudge it)?

Well done Peter on the excellent work, i tried it on my SA RISC PC with very limited sucess, however this is the first beta so im sure things will improve very soon.

Fuzzy on 21/6/05 9:29AM
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In contrast to some, it worked first time on both my RiscPC and my Iyonix. Strangely enough it didn't seem hugely different in performance between the two (although text entry was noticebly slower on the RiscPC), and scrolling the page almost seemed quicker on the RPC. Unfortunately I can't have them literally sitting side by side to compare, because I've only got one monitor, but if anyone is curious I could try to do some timings tonight. But that's all largely irrelevent at this stage - it's here, and it works, and it's only going to get better.

Congratulations, and thanks, to Peter and anyone else who contributed!

SimonC on 21/6/05 10:08AM
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I don't think that the UPP and all the related projects make RISC OS less interesting to developers - not at all. The UPP and the work done on UnixLib and GCC mean that RISC OS developers can tap into the wealth of libraries available for other platforms, and this helps a lot to avoid reinventing the wheel. I hope that David McEwen also proves this with his Cineroma work.

Just look at the NetSurf project. I don't think we would have a usable browser already without being able to simply port libxml, libjpeg, libmng, libcurl, openssl...it is much less frustrating for a developer if they can just reuse the very same libraries they can use on other platforms.

The most important thing that makes RISC OS less attractive to developers is the comparatively weak processing power available, since this means that many projects are just not sensible to undertake. Unfortunately, looking at the past progress of Intel, Samsung and ARM, this is very unlikely to change.

hubersn on 21/6/05 10:12AM
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Couldn't the power problem be (partially) solved by having a co-processor on a PCI card and having special replacement modules that use it?

The new firefox is very welcome. I made a paypal purchase for the first time on RISC OS. I logged in to www.e-messenger.net and used MSN, ICQ and Y! messengers.

I also think it's a very good move to port the next version rather than the current. (We are ahead of everyone else for once

)

Jaffa: I tried the MenuX on my work machine. Certainly a step more RISC OSy. (except it's running on 2K

) Getting firefox more RO style guided via extensions would have the benefit of being able to do the same on any other OS you use it on.

jess on 21/6/05 11:04AM
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to mripley: re 'reading' Excel, !ViewXLS will do this excellently (pardon the unintended pun), including workbooks.

to hubersn: re processing power, I agree. And presumably the gap will grow when 64-bit PC apps, OSes and processors are commonplace. We badly need to at least get over the 1Ghz barrier IMO. BTW, has anyone tried overclocking an Iyonix? I've not heard of any attempts.

George

bucksboy on 21/6/05 11:19AM
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This article has made it onto the Inquirer. Looks like the port is also generating a fair bit of interest outside of RISC OS's usual arena.

[link]

flypig on 21/6/05 11:28AM
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@Helpful:

& *that* was a repost! (Right after which, I went to bed.) Pardon the typos - I'm trying to switch to the Dvorak keyboard layout & I'm not yet up to speed. & yes, I'd /love/ a RiscPC, but I have several old Macs & PCs to rehome 1st. Anyone want a free Mac in the London area?

I didn't think the speed was at all bad given the age of the H/W running it. Very respectable.

lproven on 21/6/05 12:31PM
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Just managed to log onto my company site remotely - for the first time from my RO machine since they upgraded to MSIE 6! Firefox is slow (especially text entry) but useable on this Kinetic, and I was able to read emails and open folders as if it had been my normal wintel workstation. A great step forward for our platform - congratulations to Peter and his helpers!

George

bucksboy on 21/6/05 12:46PM
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@Mripley:

I hope you're right. I think the point to realize here is that for *every* RISC OS app, there are probably 2-3 or more GPL alternatives for Linux - there's a /mountain/ of Free S/W these days.

(I'm typing into Firefox on Ubuntu Linux, a great, Free O/S which comes with Internet tools, complete office suite, media players, games, online help - everything you could need. The whole OS is a free download from www.ubuntulinux.org.

(Oh, & it's running on a 1.2GHz Duron PC with 256MB RAM that I built from scrap & free bits.)

A whole suite of this would be a very powerful boost for RISC OS. Buy your machine, get all the S/W you need thrown in... - browser: Firefox - email & contacts manager: Thunderbird or Evolution - chat: GAIM - web editor: Nvu - calendar: Sunbird - WP: AbiWord - spreadsheet: Gnumeric (which can handle Excel files) - MP3/media player: XMMS or Mplayer or Totem or Amarok or Juk or many others. Yes, including DVD support

... & so on. I could go on.

But why bother to write commercial apps when all these useful progs are there for free?

I'm nto saying this *will* happen, only that it *could*. It's something to be aware of.

But apps are the lifeblood of an O/S & the UPP has connected RISC OS to a huge rich fresh supply. It's amazing work & a great step forward.

lproven on 21/6/05 12:49PM
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@Hubersn:

Yes, that's very true, I agree.

I'd suggest that some of the most important supplementary elements that are needed now are libraries or plugins to support the main dynamic-content formats: Flash & Java are big, but also RealPlayer, QuickTime, Windows MediaPlayer, DivX & MPEG4 in general, including the up-&-coming H.264.

lproven on 21/6/05 12:56PM
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[!] I didn't realise there was a limit, especially not such a low 1! Sorry for filling it up...

lproven on 21/06/05 1:00PM
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"In Reply to Fuzzy"

Sorry obout the delay. The link that crashed Oregano2 (latest version on Iyonix) is

[link]

Martin

mrtd on 21/06/05 1:06PM
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I guess I'll just add my congratulations to Peter as well, sterling work indeed. Can't wait to give Firefox on RISC OS a try !!!!

AMS on 21/06/05 1:14PM
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Hurray. At long last I can access my Natwest online banking without having to use Internet Explorer.

Well done Pete. My UPP subs was a very good purchase indeed.

sa110 on 21/06/05 10:56PM
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Speed of Firefox on the A9home is quite acceptable. Not as quick as !NetSurf, but just as quick if not quicker than !Fresco running via Aemulator.

sa110 on 21/06/05 10:58PM
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sa110:

interesting - what happens if you put !scrap into a RAMdisc?

Old trick to make fresco fly...

ROHC on 21/06/05 11:24PM
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sa110> I should point out that only the ARM610 engine of Aemulor currently works on the A9home since the JIT phase is incomplete, so the speed you're seeing with Fresco is less than impressive.

adrianl on 21/06/05 11:57PM
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The rendering speed of !firefox is pretty good, the speed problems just appear to be with the response to mouse clicks and keyboard entry.

I found turning off autoscrolling makes it more usable on big pages.

jess on 22/06/05 09:13AM
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Adrian my appologies. I had not realised that. But even so, in my opinion, I dont really think the speed of !Fresco is that impressive anyway on my SARPC.

sa110 on 22/06/05 09:33AM
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I concur with Jess. I have found firefox to be quite fast at rendering a page but painfully slow when responding to mouse and keyboard clicks. This contrast in speed makes me suspicious that it's not firefox but perhaps something much more fundamental with an I/O library procedure.

mripley on 22/06/05 10:53AM
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It's true about the i/o, but I also wonder about the rendering, because when scrolling a page I can sometimes see it going through a redraw (but that could all be related, I suppose). On the flip side, it's very impressive compared to the likes of Oregano (speed-wise as well as correct rendering) on some complex sites, no more sitting there with the hourglass running through. In all honesty, things like I/O speed aren't concerning me much at this stage, for the very first release. It's just great to have it here and working at all.

SimonC on 22/06/05 11:32AM
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mripley> I don't think we should get into speculation on what may be the cause for slowness in particular areas of Firefox.

I am sure that Peter is well aware of the issues and requires nothing more than information on repeatable crashes as discussed in the Firefox !Help file.

jonix on 22/06/05 1:28PM
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> A whole suite of this would be a very powerful boost for RISC OS. Buy your machine, get all the S/W you need thrown in... Buy an Iyonix and get for free: - browser: Firefox Oregano 2 - email & contacts manager: Thunderbird or Evolution Messenger Pro Lite - chat: GAIM Download LIRC - web editor: Nvu StrongEd :-)

- calendar: Sunbird Download Organizer - WP: AbiWord Writer - spreadsheet: Gnumeric (which can handle Excel files) Fireworkz - MP3/media player: XMMS or Mplayer or Totem or Amarok or Juk or many others. Yes, including DVD support Audio, all free. Video, still waiting for cineroma. DVD, 20ukps for a standalone :-)

, or wait for Cino

Could the firefox extension problem be it's a later version, extensions have version number compatiblity checks

mavhc on 22/06/05 2:48PM
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mavhc: LIRC isn't 32 bit compatible, so that'll have to go from your list (even the latest testing version), although it works fine with Aemulor, unless the intention is to sort that out some time.

SimonC on 22/06/05 3:01PM
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Certain complex rendering in FireFox can be a little slow, such as overlaying the road map on aerial photos with multimap - but it works, so fantastic! A tremendous achievement by Peter and all the other contributors.

Example aerial photograph of Gloucestershire airport I fly from:- [link] 8&gridn=221596.884790398&srec=0&coordsys=gb&db=ukairports&pc=&zm=0&out.x=7&out.y=9&scale=10000

druck on 22/06/05 4:50PM
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@mavhc: You are joking, right? Almost all the Linux apps mentioned are vastly superior to the RISC OS apps you list below them.

JGZimmerle on 22/06/05 5:00PM
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Except of course in user interface and speed, where the Linux apps will be terrible, behaving depressingly like Windows apps :-(

helpful on 22/06/05 6:26PM
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Well, this might improve a bit, if someone gets around to adjust GTK & co.

Anyway, the best UI is useless, when the apps are simply not compatible with the rest of the world. I really like Organizer, but I don't use it anymore, simply because it can not exchange data with my mobile (smart) phone (SonyEricsson P800) in a sesible way.

JGZimmerle on 22/06/05 6:46PM
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Talking about smart phones. Is there a way to run Symbian programs on RISC OS machines?

Jaco on 22/06/05 8:36PM
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JGZimmerle:

Organizer can be easily made to export vCalendar files, which I believe are also supported by your phone. You need a script for this, but it's very straightforward to set one up.

I agree with helpful when it comes to the Linux applications. The interface is important; after all, if it was just about the functionality then there would be no point porting them as we'd all just be using Linux instead. The exception is when the functionality isn't available for RISC OS at all.

flypig on 22/06/05 10:22PM
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I would argue that "if" a RISC OS application can provide a standard feed, such as Organizer and vCalendar files, then they should do so out of the box and not rely and the user to add a script/extension/bolt-on. If we want to attract people away from other OS's then the ability to transfer data between PDA's, cameras etc is essential.

There are a considerable number of good applications, quite a few free, that only need that little bit extra functionality to make them a viable alternative to the dark side. Some of the changes required are only cosmetic since people like their flashing widgets (which the purists can switch off).

mripley on 23/06/05 09:04AM
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But that depends of what functionality you actually NEED! There are very few things that I need to do that I can't manage with my Iyonix, and most of those have been/are being addressed by Firefox. It used to be that I need to use my Windows PC at work to visit some sites. I doubt that I will be doing that very much now. So there is not much reason for me to ever use Windows at all, except perhaps that one of the three computers on my desk at work happens to run it. Since my mobile phone is a few years old (I unly use it a dozen times a year anyway), and I don't have a PDA (I'm waiting for a RISC OS one). I don't need any fancy comms. And of course I dispute that our apps are not compatible with the rest of the world. Many are, and if compatibility is inportant to you you will get those ones. And our compatibility has just taken a giant leap forward with the availability of Firefox. It already has my vote for RISC OS app of the year 2005!

mrtd on 23/06/05 09:10AM
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I discovered last that Firefox would import my hotlist from !Bookmaker. A very useful feature. this piece of software gets better and better.

JWCR on 23/06/05 11:28AM
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John: How did you do that? I would like to do the same. I had assumed that there was no way my Bookmaker hotlist could be used with Firefox, short of constructing a new set of Firefox bookmarks.

mrtd on 23/06/05 12:10AM
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SimonC> I converted LIRC to 32-bit yesterday, following your prompt. Am awaiting a response from Thomas wrt its distribution.

adrianl on 23/06/05 1:33PM
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adrianl: And 26 bit LIRC was one of the reasons I forked out on Aemulor. so thanks for making that a waste of money! (joking - I really bought it so that Elite would work!) Which version did you convert? I've been using a test version that I possibly shouldn't have been (there was a link posted to it on comp.sys.acorn.misc quite some time ago), but it's a much better version than the easily available one.

SimonC on 23/06/05 2:57PM
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Just the readily-available version 1.85 at the moment, I'm afraid. We'll have to wait and see what Thomas has to say, I suppose.

adrianl on 23/06/05 4:09PM
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Well, I don't consider exporting a vCalendar file from Organizer, copying it to my phone and importing it into the Symbian calendar application for every single entry very effective, especially when there are hundreds of entries each year, some of them changing from time to time and then have to be altered manually on the other machine. And then there are also the contacts, notes and task-lists to take care of. What is really needed is proper synchronisation, out of the box.

JGZimmerle on 23/06/05 7:39PM
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JGZimmerle:

I agree that out of the box synchronisation is really what's needed and would be great.

But just to clarify, I'm not sure that the current situation is as bad as you imply. A vCalendar file can contain multiple entries, including task-lists. Organiser will export these all in one go, so you don't have to do every entry individually. Contacts can be transferred using a vCard file in the same way (I believe Organiser has /this/ built in out of the box).

mripley:

Again, ideally the functionality should be there 'out of the box', but the fact that Organizer can deal with vCalendar files at all is testament to its clever scripting abilities. In many senses, it's much more useful for an application author to concentrate on adding general scripting functionality than a specific format that may go out of favour in a few years. This way other users who don't want to spend lots of time coding can contribute instead by creating useful scripts/additions.

flypig on 23/06/05 7:59PM
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In reply to JWCR:

Are you going to let us all know how you got Firefox to import Bookmaker's hotlist ?

ajb on 24/06/05 6:51PM
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How does Peter want payment ? Does he have a Paypal setup or require a cheque.

Just tried the Alliance and Leicester's website at lunchtime, and it works!!!!

Just a quick enquiry, does anyone else have to click on the line below the actually Bookmark link wanted, to be able to open it ? No mention has been made by anyone else.

ajb on 24/06/05 7:10PM
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ok.......I am having touble... when I doubl click on !Firefox, it discs for a while hangs the system for a few seconds, then does nothing...no task appears in the task manager, and no icon. (and no memory used)

I am running Adjust (Thanks RISCOS Ltd! its great :P) and 128 Megs of RAM, I have downloaded unix lib, and unix home., i am running nothing else other than the default !Boot structure

what am I doing wrong?

em2ac on 24/06/05 9:54PM
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em2ac> the explanation for getting help with Firefox or reporting bugs is clearly documented in the !Help file. I suggest that reading this will help you resolve your issue.

jonix on 24/06/05 10:32PM
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Third time I have tried to add these instructions. Lets hope it will work this time.

1) Locate the HTML file created by !Bookmaker whenever it saves your hotlist. My copy was deep in the depth of !Oregano, Son't ask me why itis saved in a browser I have not used in over 18 months, I could not tell you.

2) Save this file to the /home directory of the !UnixHome application you are running, adding the .html extension to it.

3) On the Firefox dropdown menu click Bookmarks==>Manage Bookmarks. Which opens the Bookmark Manager app.

4) On this apps dropdown menu click File==>Import...

5) A dialogue box will then open asking if you want to load from file, click "Next"

6) This then lists the HTML files in the /home directory. Highlight the file which contains your !Bookmaker hotlist and click "Open".

JWCR on 24/06/05 11:05PM
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Tip for ViewFinder users: Firefox seems to be much more responsive when running under native VRAM on a RiscPC than under ViewFinder. Scrolling and text entry are particularly improved.

George

bucksboy on 25/06/05 1:15PM
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I see that the RISC OS build is now mentioned as one of the mozillaZine News latest items on the Mozilla homepage! The article itself is at [link]

jms on 27/06/05 10:05AM
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just worked it out....I hadnt installed the latest System (32 Bit)

I am sorry for mentioning icon, what I had meant was window

em2ac on 27/06/05 10:24AM
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Yay! although the interface is a little slow, im am left speechless in the abilty to get onto HSBC :@P

Ha! superb work Peter! Together with Adjust ;@) I now have the ultimate in RISC OS machines in my family :@D

My beast is moving to work :@P

em2ac on 28/06/05 1:55PM
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OK, I am obviously missing something here . . .

I'm trying to get Firefox working on my Iynoix Panther and each time I try, I get the message "System:Modules.Trinct not found"

RickCB on 28/07/05 12:37AM
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RiscPC breaks 1.5GHz barrier
Calm down dear, this is a case mod

23 comments, latest by flypig on 13/5/04 1:56PM. Published: 12 May 2004

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Morison in Organizer open source u-turn
Future development to be managed by new party

9 comments, latest by stevek on 31/1/08 5:06AM. Published: 28 Jan 2008

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