druck (+4.1)
12/10/06 12:06AM |
John Cartmell has acted disgracefully in this matter, and his continued deception of subscribers as to the state of his magazine, along with the relentless postings of FUD and nonsense on newsgroups, is an embarrassment to the entire RISC OS community.
The best outcome for all concerned would be for him to come clean with his former readership and creditors, and call it a day. |
PBiggs (+14.0)
12/10/06 2:17AM |
John Cartmell is probably correct that the market can't sustain 2 colour A4 magazines but that's not really an issue at present as there aren't any.
About 18 months ago I decided to subscribe to a RISC OS magazine as I'd quite like to buy an Iyonix when I'm less skint. The choice came down to Archive or Qercus. I decided that I quite liked Archive's model whereby you send them money and they send you a magazine as opposed to Qercus whereby you send them money and they whinge a bit.
Best of luck to RISC OS Now, the best thing that they can do is to deliver everything that they say they will. I may even subscribe. |
Sawadee (+1.0)
12/10/06 5:01AM |
I would rather enjoy an online version of the RISC OS magazine if anything.
The shipping costs and time it may take to send it to New Zealand deters me from bothering with ordering magazines from overseas.
PBiggs. Did you mean to say that RISC OS is producing 2 colour A4 magazines, or did you mean to count Qercus in as two? 
Steve.
-- |
hzn (+3.0)
12/10/06 6:56AM |
What's wrong with two magazines - especially if they are different. I dare say that quite a few RISC OS users are happy to subscribe to more than one magazine, assuming that it does offer interesting content and assuming that it is produced and deliviered.
As for shipping cost I agree with Sawadee since even to Germany it is already quite a bit more but on the other hand a well laid out paper magazine is better to read and especially you can do so anywhere. Despite the cost I did subscribe to Acorn Publisher since it was a very good magazine covering quite a few things I was interested in.
As to John Cartmells comments he should be happy for Louie to step in! That could give him the option officially drop Qercus instead of just not publishing it anymore. He could perhaps offer the subscribers still due the odd issue to get RISC OS Now instead by passing on the subscription fees to Louie.
As for the alleged losses John Cartmell mentioned to Louie: If RISC OS Now comes and is delivered regularly as planned then that will be a gain for all readers since it does arrive! The only one who might loose on this is John Cartmell having to return the subscription money already collected with nothing delivered but I dare say that that risk of loss of funds is there already due to the slight delay in delivering Qercus... |
nijinsky (+1.0)
12/10/06 7:59AM |
Hmmm to say thatthere are two magazines means that there are two for sale.
That is like saying there is one company making RISC OS laptops (my company). I'd love to make one, I am not making one, I don't have the money, but hey I'm a RISC OS laptop manufacturer.
Cheers
Bob |
markee174 (+4.0)
12/10/06 8:02AM |
Its quite a vote of confidence in the market (or a supreme act of folly but lets be upbeat!) to try and launch a new magazine and I look forward to seeing it. If people publish magazines and they are any good I will be delighed to buy them.
I've unscubscribed from comp.sys.acorn.misc newsgroup and stick to other comp.sys.acorn. groups - it was an awful lot of noise but little else and enough to drive any last users to dispair. Where do people get the time......
|
Jwoody (+2.9)
12/10/06 9:05AM |
John Cartmell is a discrace for taking peoples money and failing to deliver.
Louie Smith seems very naive if she phones up a competitor and asks for help.
|
VinceH (+4.0)
12/10/06 9:23AM |
"such direct competition would lead to losses and I would need to ensure that Qercus continued for the sake of the responsibility we had to our subscribers."
Speaking with my cynical accounting hat on, I can't help but wonder if that comment is foreshadowing John blaming RISC OS Now at a later date when he finally says "Qercus is no more" |
druck (+5.0)
12/10/06 9:49AM |
Qercus is already no more, its obvious JC has no serious intension to ever publish another issue, rejecting all help which has been offered by people in the publishing and printing industries, instead just peddling lame excuses and the same old broken promises. But the most worrying and devious aspect is the winding up of the company that took peoples subscription money, and the starting of a new company with a similar name, to presumably avoid liability to those creditors. No credible explanation has been given for this action.
I just hope he doesn’t have the brazen gall to turn up at the South East show, with a stand full of year or more old magazines. Any attempt to take further monies off people in such circumstances will be an act of fraud. |
markee174 (+4.1)
12/10/06 9:53AM |
"Louie Smith seems very naive if she phones up a competitor and asks for help. "
Maybe she's just a nice person trying to do things in the nicest way...
The biggest question really is how good her magazine is.
It would be nice to see some page teasers put out in PDF in the run-up to the launch at the SE Show or more details on her website. |
sascott (+5.2)
12/10/06 10:07AM |
In response to Sawadee:
If magazines are produced in PDF format, they could be sent to printers overseas, since the pound is strong, that could be used to get printing jobs done for less outlay than the cost of postage. However, it would depend on demand. Chargeable PDF downloads or samples could be the way forward.
Or how about using Lulu (www.lulu.com)? There's a thought... |
RichardHallas (+6.5)
12/10/06 11:13AM |
I find this story interesting from a number of points of view in my position as a recently-departed editor in this field. For those who don't know, I became editor of RISC User back in 1994, which was a regular colour magazine of good repute when I stepped in, and after it closed down in 1998 (following the closure of Acorn) I set up Foundation RISC User for RISCOS Ltd.
My memories of that initial, daunting time when I took over the editorship of an already highly regarded magazine are of pleasure at the support I received from the RISC OS community. Certainly there was a 'honeymoon period' while I settled in, but the community was conspicuously friendly, helpful and supportive, and that included my 'competition'. Back then, there were five paper magazines serving the RISC OS world: the big two were Acorn User and Archimedes World, then the subscription-only Acorn Publisher, Archive and my own RISC User. Each had its own individual approach and areas of interest, and there was room for all of them at the time. My fellow editors got along very well, and whilst I don't suppose that we'd expect to share sensitive information with one another, our relationsships were always extremely good in my experience. (For what it's worth, in more recent times I've got on perfectly well with John Cartmell, too.)
Taking over an established and respected magazine was a daunting prospect, and I'm grateful for the friendly support I received, including that from my nominal competitors. Setting up a new magazine from scratch is an even more daunting and ambitious proposition. If what this Drobe article claims is true then I can only sympathise with how Louie must feel and be grateful that it didn't happen to me; but, of course, it would be entirely wrong of me to speculate and comment on what was said in a private phone conversation. We can read and be shocked by this Drobe article, but it's hard to know how representative it is of what was actually said. The question of Drobe's source of information does intrigue me. There are no links to anything that we can follow up, and as for the matter of how Drobe knows what was said in a private phone conversation, where has that information come from?
Of course, I can feel for John, too: at present he's left with the only magazine of its kind in the RISC OS world, and the absence of competition removes a certain pressure from his job. My experience of editing RISC User involved constant worrying about what the rival magazines were likely to be doing, and attempting to be at least as good as them. Competition is a healthy thing, even given that the competitors may not always like the fact.
On the other hand, with all due respect, it has to be said that John has brought this problem on himself. It's about a year since we last saw an issue of Qercus (a supposedly monthly magazine), and if the publication had been coming out regularly and reliably then it would be far less likely that anyone would have felt the need to launch an alternative to it. I'll be most interested to see the next issue of Qercus to find out, for example, if it includes any of the several adverts (in different formats) that I designed for the Wakefield '06 show! I put those together specifically for this magazine (e.g. A3 DPS landscape and A4 portrait) and was told at one point that the issue containing one of them was at the printer. If a future issue appears and contains one of these adverts, then it'll be amusingly out of date, though I'd like to see the advert simply so that my unpaid work in creating it doesn't feel entirely wasted. (Contributors will also feel somewhat aggrieved about the non-publication of their efforts, but at least their work isn't time-critical in the same way as a show advert!)
Anyway, back to the point. I imagine that John is feeling rather threatened by the likely appearance of a new RISC OS magazine as there's every chance, given past history of non-delivery, that he'll lose most of his subscribers to it, and it can be seen as an outcome that he's brought on himself (regardless of whether he wants to continue to blame his printers or take personal responsibility for the problems).
He may have a point that there is no longer room for two RISC OS publications, but I don't really accept it. He may have the only remaining colour A4 magazine, but Archive and Eureka still exist as printed options and Foundation RISC User and RISC World are CD-based alternatives, and many people subscribe to two or more of them. It's certainly true that there's a lot less to write about in the RISC OS market than was the case a decade ago, and there are also fewer good people to do the writing, but the resources haven't dried up. There are still interesting things to cover, particularly in a new publication run by a new editor with a fresh pair of eyes. And there's certainly room for two magazines in the market if one of them doesn't actually publish any issues any more.
My own experiences in editing magazines tell me that Louie is taking on a great deal, and has set herself an ambitious task. This is particularly true if she's planning to be a full-time teacher as well. When I was editing RISC User, and trying to keep its standards as high as I could, I found it to be a full-time job that left little room for other things; and it wasn't even a monthly magazine (rather, ten issues per year). But I'll admit that I'm a meticulous rather than quick worker, and could have spent less time on it if I hadn't been so pernickety.
Anyway, I wish Louie Smith good fortune. I do have my reservations about what she's trying to do, and fear that she's attempting something that may prove to be unsustainable, but it's an heroic attempt at this point in history, and if she thinks she can make a success of it, then all the best to her. |
markee174 (+2.0)
12/10/06 11:51AM |
". It's certainly true that there's a lot less to write about in the RISC OS market than was the case a decade ago,"
Isn't that the same about IT though. There is a lot of smoke but very little real fire.
"My own experiences in editing magazines tell me that Louie is taking on a great deal, and has set herself an ambitious task."
Maybe its one of those tasks where, if you knew what was really involved at the start, you would not have ever even attempted it!
To give JC some credit, he made a very positive decision to pay for contributions when he started (unlike the defunct AU), and in my personal experience he has always honoured that.... |
olster (+3.0)
12/10/06 12:00PM |
I have to agree with John that the market can't support two full colour A4 magazines. I can't see the problem though. One has ceased publication so another is needed to take over. |
helpful (+3.0)
12/10/06 1:00PM |
In reply to RichardHallas:
"I'll admit that I'm a meticulous rather than quick worker"
We noticed
That is meant as a compliment of course! The high quality and attention to detail in Foundation RISC User was much appreciated.
By the way, what's going to happen to FRU now you have moved on? Any idea who will be taking over as editor? They'll have a tough act to follow. |
jc (-0.4)
12/10/06 2:01PM |
"Tensions ran high"? Actually no. There has been no argument between Louie and myself. She is producing a magazine with content that differs from that of Qercus and so there should be no clash. The comment I made would apply if the content was similar - and was made before she confirmed that it would be different.
When we have copies of Qercus 277 in the post to subscribers we'll make an announcement about that - and also give details of the publication dates of following issues and how subscribers can be confident of those dates. We know that the best reply to FUD is the product in your customer's hand. |
DS1 (+0.2)
12/10/06 4:18PM |
So waiting until H.F.O. then. |
JohnB
12/10/06 5:52PM |
I'm looking forward to RISC OS Now's first issue and wish Louie all the best with her venture - especially after having sucscribed ^_^
Equally I hope JC can keep his promises and get Quercus back into print. I think there's definitely room for more publications. I also subscribe to RISC World but that didn't deter me from also subscribing to RISC OS Now and I'm sure many others follow more than one publication. |
RichardHallas (+1.0)
12/10/06 6:12PM |
In reply to helpful:
Thanks very much for your kind words! Much appreciated.
Paul Middleton is intending to edit Foundation RISC User himself in the future.
My own swan-song as an editor in the RISC OS world is actually the second FRU DVD edition, which contains the material from all 20 issues of FRU to date, all indexed, cross-referenced and combined into the standard FRU interface. It's just like the first DVD except that (a) it's obviously got an extra four issues' worth of content in it and (b) the few mistakes that I discovered in previous editions (including both DVD1 and FRU20!) have been corrected. The FRU DVD edition 2 exists, but hasn't yet been advertised by RISCOS Ltd. No doubt it'll become available soon. |
thesnark (+1.0)
12/10/06 6:44PM |
In reply to steelpillow:
I think you vastly underestimate the amount of time required to achieve anything worthwhile in the field of programming. I have recently spent days (not minutes, which is all it takes to comment on a Drobe article) almost solely on a RISC OS programming project. |
Andrea (+9.8)
12/10/06 10:21PM |
I'd just like to say that I'm not sure why everyone is so angry with each other. John and myself had a telephone converstation. A comment about It was picked up on one of the newgroups. I stated there and then that I didn't feel it to be relevant. As far as I am concered that is the end of the story. What was disgussed is between myself and John is just that; between John and myself.
However, I did NOT call John to ask about subscription numbers. That is completely fabricated and are the kind of comments that can land people in trouble. Nor did I call to ask about any other sensitive information. As is stated in the in the article, it was a 'courtesy call', nothing more nothing less. I wanted to be upfront with JC so that he had heard it from me, not through the grape vine where things can get twisted, that I would be starting a new magazine. Anyone who interprets that as a way to get sensitive information out of another is, to be frank, rather misguided and I would object to such things being said about myself or John regarding that conversation.
Aside from this, I think that people should just in general be more positive. I am doing what I'm doing for my own reasons, of which the most important is enjoyment. I dare say that JC is doing the same. I wish people would give up arguing and work together. There is just no need for the constant bitching- because that is what it is. We all have a fanasitc opportunity here, (to continue the market and make it grow so that others have the benefit of it too). For goodness sake get it together!  Louie Smith |
mrchocky (+6.7)
12/10/06 10:38PM |
In reply to Andrea:
A nice sentiment, but unfortunately a disturbingly large amount of argument comes about precisely because of comments made by JC (both about his magazine and plenty other things). i.e the FUD in question. And since he is directly responsible for this, the answer to much argument and FUD is simply for JC to be quiet. Sadly, that seems unlikely. |
hzn (+3.0)
13/10/06 6:51AM |
Thanks Louie for your clarification!
What does give reason for thought is that every once in a while I get the impression that sometimes the things published on Drobe are not 100% accurate - e.g. Drobe stating that Louie asked for subscription numbers and Louie stating otherwise...
And as for argumenting here instead of working together: I agree that more working together in the RISC OS world would be very good but does need that the parties involved are on good speaking terms to start with. Furthermore there are those doing the work mainly for fun and others to really earn money which can mean that working together might result in less income for the latter and thus be a problem - though I have the impression that that is more often than not not the issue. Hey, you out there working for RISC OS: Do it together, try it!
But I think what is worse for the RISC OS community since it makes the users unhappy or simply lets them move to different platforms is that in the more or less recent past things the users paid for were not delivered in time, or not at all (yet), or the users were expected to continue payment despite no delivery (yet). Just look at the Drobe comments of the past and see what topics the discussion looked at. Lucky me that I am no Select subscriber or Qercus subscriber since I'd be dammn angry by now and this anger (or resignation?) is something I think is inside quite a few users and needs some platform to get out.
One very sad side-effect to this is that quite a few new projects are expected to follow suit and thus before they really started considered to not work! Just assume that you are into starting something and you get to read that quite a few think that you won't make it - isn't that inspiring! Well in that case I sincerely wish you that you consider all them comments stupid (which they are in most cases) and good luck!
Louie, this said: I wish you all the best and hope that you have success and I do hope you get support (yes, especially support).
I know why support is helpful since I publish the German RISC OS magazine GAG-News since 1992 bi-monthly. Quite some time ago when Acorn was still there I did get much support, be it from manufacturers and others writing articles as well as advertisements. As time passed by and Acorn passed away this support got less and less so that currently it does happen sometimes that I write the full 32 pages of the A4 magazine all by myself (and due to the need of writing in German I can't even start off with cut'n'pasting from the net). But despite this loss of direct support I'll continue since it is fun, I think it is important and the feedback I get is not much but what I get is encouraging.
|
markee174 (+2.5)
13/10/06 8:01AM |
In reply to Andrea:
I am really looking forward to seeing your new mag at the SE show (and I am really looking forward to seeing the next copy of Qercus too). |
VinceH (+2.0)
13/10/06 9:03AM |
In reply to HZN:
"every once in a while I get the impression that sometimes the things published on Drobe are not 100% accurate - e.g. Drobe stating that Louie asked for subscription numbers and Louie stating otherwise... "
That's probably just an assumption/attempt to read between the lines based on what John Cartmell said in [Link: groups.google.com] which was:
"I refused to answer your questions about our subscription numbers or costs." |
jc (+0.1)
13/10/06 9:36AM |
I don't know why Louie rang me - and I've no reason to question the reason she has given. We have different 'takes' on the conversation (as Jack Straw would put it "you need to see someone's face to get the full benefit of a discussion") but we certainly didn't and haven't had an argument.
It's disturbing that amongst the comments of interest and concern are pieces designed solely to cause damage - and apparently for the satisfaction of seeing damage done. Those responsible need to reflect on the damage to the RISC OS market and community that they deliberately cause. |
moss (+3.1)
13/10/06 10:20AM |
I think the whole Qercus situation has done far more to damage to RISC OS than any of the things you mention, John. |
Sawadee
13/10/06 11:18AM |
In reply to sascott:
The idea of a PDF version magazine online so that overseas customers can take to the local printers sounds like a good idea and alternative to shipping printed matter.
The only problem I see could be the initial local printers costs for one off personal copy. Possibly a few Kiwis (New Zealanders) may order some copies printed locally? Local Acorn dealers ceased to import magazines due to the shipping costs and lack of numbers to make it worthwhile the time and effort.
A good thought there, however, it may be better to just simply avoid printer's costs and the costs to produce multitudes of magazines by having one online version for customers to access and print off themselves if needed?
No excuse for printing costs, delays at the press or shipping around the world in eighty days if it were online? I understand how many would feel that a printed magazine in the hands is better than online reading versions. I just thought that online may be a more cost effective and more easily accessed for a start and until customer numbers grew big enough to justify the cost of a printed version?
Steve.
-- |
flibble (-0.9)
13/10/06 11:40AM |
In reply to sawadee:
Get over it, if you want a paper RISC OS magazine, pay for the shipping, move to a nearer country or just read drobe. If you think your 'ship as PDF version' would get more than a handful of customers in such a tiny market as this, present your detailed researched potential numbers to John and Louie and give them a chance to decide if the cost is worth it. |
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Media watch - Tensions between Qercus and RISC OS Now ran high this week after Qercus editor John Cartmell said there wasn't enough room for two colour A4 magazines. The fallout came after RISC OS Now editor Louie Smith rang John to find out how many subscribers he had, and the details of his publication's costs. John refused to answer, adding that he owed his subscribers a promise to deliver issues, and would not let competition from Louie stand in his way.