hzn (+3.0)
16/7/07 7:18AM |
I really like the sentence "From our point of view the lack of new features in RISC OS 5 since its launch four years ago speaks volumes.". While this is basically true I think there are a few things not taken into account here:
1. This kind of remark by a company collecting subscription fees from their subscribers for years but not delivering the promised results in time or with a reasonable delay but with a very significant delay but no sensible reimbursement ... and then to top things a new OS with only very little new features for their main customer base (32bitting is worth nil for the RiscPC users) ...
2. Currently there is not much as for the OS in RO6 that would make me want to part with much money to get it. New features are not enough to get me to part with money - for that the features must be worth the price. Not that there is not quite a bit in RO6 that is not in RO5 but for me to part with money the featureset has to be worth the price.
3. I guess that quite a few IYONIX users simply asked ROL the odd time to simply deliver the odd Select feature - no need for a full OS in 32 bit since we have that already. E.g. the ehanced Paint and Draw app etc. should be not problem - if they are then that suggests the question of how other even more versatile apps like Photodesk and ArtWorks run.
4. And the "committed partners" opposed to Castle. ROL, do not forget that Ad6 and VA need your OS for their hardware and thus you work together. But CTL has no need for Select - you are the one wanting to sell Select to IYONIX users, not CTL. Thus this one is completely in your ball park. CTL doesn't need your OS since they have one up and running and 32 bit too.
As for the 1,000th subscriber: Concurrent?
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chrisj (+2.1)
16/7/07 8:49AM |
"From our point of view the lack of new features in RISC OS 5 since its launch four years ago speaks volumes."
Yes, it's shocking the way that Castle have only implemented support for new hardware like USB2 and multiple graphics cards, rather than getting down to the serious business of allowing rounded corners on action buttons. More seriously, I agree with hzn that this is a bit of cheek coming from a subscription-funded company that gave their subscribers nothing for three years - especially since Castle have a well-earned reputation for keeping quiet about new developments until they're actually ready. Yes, there are some useful changes to things in Select that RO5 doesn't have - most notably some of the improvements to the bundled apps - but none of them is exactly earth-shattering. |
CKH2
16/7/07 11:04AM |
I have just received Select 4 and then a resubscription notice. Suddenly I am thinking - what is the purpose of resubscribing? I have an A9 home, RiscPC and Iyonix. At the last show 'one off' copies of Select4/RiscOS6 were sold for £50. The Iyonix is already horribly non-standard over its use of the delete key which annoys me every time I use it - that's the fix I want for the Iyonix, not Select. |
jmb (+1.0)
16/7/07 11:59AM |
In reply to CKH2:
I presume you're aware of the existence of Steve Fryatt's "PC Keyboard" module? http://www.stevefryatt.org.uk/software/utils/
Also, fwiw, Acorn specified (in the Style Guide iirc -- I don't have it to hand to check) that, when using a PC keyboard, the delete key should have PC behaviour. The Iyonix has a PC keyboard. |
AW
16/7/07 8:09PM |
Can we confirm that "Castle were not available for comment" is a genuine statement?
If it is, then I'm sorry but that's just not good enough.
People are spending over a THOUSAND pounds at a time with this company. Others have spent this money with you in the past and are waiting on your next move for a major purchase. You cannot treat customers like this and expect to be regarded as an fair and decent company.
If there is a not future for RISC OS then please Castle can you have the decency and basic respect for people to say so. Witholding like this has caused immense damage already.
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sa110 (+1.0)
16/7/07 8:17PM |
Cannot ROL simply get the information from ROOL, or does ROOL not have the source code to hardware specific areas? |
stevef (+2.0)
16/7/07 9:53PM |
In reply to AW:
I'm not quite sure what Castle have to do with it? The product being discussed is ROL's, and as far as I can see, Castle have delivered everything that they have promised to Iyonix owners (ie. a machine, a 32-bit OS and subsequent updates). The issue of RISC OS 6 is between us and ROL, if we want it. |
stevef (+1.0)
16/7/07 9:54PM |
In reply to CKH2:
As noted above, there's a version of PC Keyboard (version 2.09) specifically updated to allow the Iyonix keyboard to be mapped back to the Acorn-style Delete, for those who want it (the opposite of its more usual use for making rogue applications behave in the correct RISC OS 5 style). I've been told it works fine like this... |
Jaffa (+2.0)
16/7/07 10:06PM |
Although "lack of interest from Castle" is blamed, these two statements seem entirely different in tone:
"[...] it has only heard from 130 Iyonix users who want Select on their Xscale-powered machines." (emphasis added)
"RISC OS 6 has far more advanced features than RISC OS 5, as has been shown by the number of users who want RISC OS Select features on their real Iyonix."
Hmm. |
AW (+1.0)
16/7/07 10:54PM |
Well RISC OS developer may be being a bit disingenuous by not mentioning the license fee paid by Castle for RISC OS but "no comment" as if the even bigger investment in Castle by thousands of RISC OS users over the past 10 years is not their concern and beneath them is downright ignorant and arrogant if true.
This issue reveals the ghastly situation that an OS with world-beating software is in: the main hope for hardware development aloof and distant and the OS developer hedging its bets on the A9 - a worthy but inferior computer to the Iyonix - or facing certain oblivion with the sweetened pill of a lumped retirement sum if the only hardware RISC OS runs on is PC/Mac based. |
stevef (+1.0)
16/7/07 11:20PM |
In reply to AW:
I still don't see why Castle need to comment. RISC OS 6 is nothing to do with them, and I'm not aware that they ever promised it to those buying Iyonixes. Given that, where does the ignorance and arrogance come in? |
OwlArt
17/7/07 9:05AM |
Doesn't "Castle were not available to comment" simply mean that when Drobe phoned them they weren't there to answer the phone?
It doesn't say "Castle said, "No comment"", which is what people seem to be reading it as. |
rjek
17/7/07 9:36AM |
In reply to OwlArt:
Or Drobe phoned and asked to speak to somebody to provide some comment, and they declined  |
OwlArt
17/7/07 9:46AM |
Wouldn't that be "Castle declined to comment" rather than being "unavailable to comment" though? I'd have interpreted "unavailable" as not being able to speak to someone. |
rjek
17/7/07 10:20AM |
In reply to OwlArt:
Well, being able to talk to a telephonist who says nobody's in at the moment strikes me as more "unavailable" than "declined", although one is easy emulated if you want to avoid reporters. |
Stewy
17/7/07 10:40AM |
In reply to stevef:
"Castle have delivered everything that they have promised to Iyonix owners (ie. a machine, a 32-bit OS and subsequent updates)."
Sort of. They raised expectations about future development though with the Merlin project, which quietly died a death.
http://www.iyonix.com/iyonix/news/merlin.shtml
http://www.drobe.co.uk/riscos/artifact1061.html
To their credit is the formation of ROOL, which is a fantastic development, and the release of the sources to RISC OS will I'm sure bear fruit.
I recently purchased two Iyonix computers, and would dearly love to update them with the Select features I value on my Virtual RPC Adjust (e.g. enhanced Paint, Draw, Image filer). A combination of updates from ROOL and the release of Select features from ROL would be perfect for me. |
hzn (+1.0)
17/7/07 11:53AM |
In reply to AW & Stewy & others:
RO6 for IYONIX is indeed purely a ROL issue - period.
That Ad6/VA work together with ROL is no surprise, since they need ROL's OS, whereas CTL does not. If ROL (or whatever other company) wants to supply software for any computer the work is in their ball park. Question arising is why ROL doesn't seem to want to supply the intersting Select features like the enhanced Apps etc. as normal apps for RO5 - that is surely possible, other suppliers manage to supply apps for RO5 too. OK, ROL keeps on claiming that that is not possible due to their kernel being so different; this might be important for a few things but most Select features can be done on RO5 for sure. Furhtermore they simply state that they don't know the hardware and thus can't supply a full OS - who wants a full OS anyhow?
A while ago ROL claimed they need 100 IYONIX user wanting Select - well they stated to have 130 and I assume that more would buy something ROL has to offer ... if they do really offer something. My personal impression I get from whatever information about IYONIX Select is that ROL doesn't really want to do IYONIX Select but instead of clearly stating so they keep blaming the lack of progress on others, be it that 130 IYONIX Select wanting users is too little, that CTL doesn't help them as much as they want to, lack of resoruces, lack of paying IYONIX Select subscribers ....
Furthermore if they would really want to get the IYONIX users to part with money for Select they should offer the new Paint, Draw, Trashcan, Image Filer, Image Convert etc. as a software bundle for RO5 at a resonable price. I know that quite a few IYONIX users would be interested in just that - as a matter of fact I'm not sure I even want a ROL OS for my IYONIX pc - why pay for a complete OS and perhaps tackle with the odd issue and problem just to get the odd enhancement when those enhancements could be supplied as add-ons to the current one?
As for Merlin my guess is that CTL was more or less forced to ditch it since it kind of died after the legal dispute ROL-CTL where one result was the impression that desktop RO is ROL's game and furhtermore AFAIR ROL started to promise to supply Select to IYONIX so that both companies doing the same, i.e. supplying the odd RO desktop enhancement would have been a waste of resources.
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Eddie (+1.0)
17/7/07 12:36PM |
Nicely said Herbert.
If ROL offered a software bundle as you suggested I would buy it - but I refuse to subscibe to Select with no evidence that they are serious about making an Iyonix version. |
jess (+1.0)
17/7/07 12:48PM |
Shouldn't the objectives of ROOL facilitate ROL to produce select for the Iyonix?
Surely the problem must be that it hasn't progressed as far as would be needed?
(Presumably with the disagreements that Castle have had with ROL in the past, they see as intransigence on Castle's part.)
The ROOL initiative seems like it could be the answer to a unified OS model.
As long as ROL and ROOL keep/make the structure of the two RISC OSes compatible, so a working system can be constructed from a mix of components as needed, having two systems needn't be the disaster it could be if aprroached wrongly. (It might even have adavantages). |
rjek (+0.1)
17/7/07 1:20PM |
The reasons why the ROL applications can't be ported to RISC OS 5 have been stated time and time again: they rely on new features of the OS to provide their enhancements that CTL's RISC OS does not have.
In terms of porting an OS, nobody other than Castle has managed to write an on-the-metal OS for the Iyonix. Both Linux and NetBSD depend on RISC OS having already set stuff up. Castle need to provide documentation for their hardware to let other OS authors port their operating systems to the Iyonix. I don't spot any such details on their web site. |
guestx
17/7/07 1:48PM |
Drobe (or the Icon Bar) should really have some kind of betting service where we people can put their money on everyone having more or less the same conversation in two, five, ten years time. The profits could fund development on a Free Software version of RISC OS, perhaps... |
hubersn (+2.0)
17/7/07 2:59PM |
In reply to Rob:
since Select is softloading anyway, there is no need for it to go "on the metal" at all - just like the Linux port available, RISC OS 5 will have set up everything nicely. Apart from that, the IYONIX does not use "magic hardware" anywhere, just bog-standard stuff.
It is of course not sensible to replace the whole RISC OS 5 stuff with the typical "Select softloading mechanism" which just replaces the whole OS. You'd have to reinvent a lot of stuff that works just fine (USB drivers, nVIDIA drivers, IDE/ATAPI stuff). I guess the way much of the Select extensions were done is pretty much incompatible with the idea of softloading only a few parts of it over another RISC OS version. Which is just too bad for RISCOS Ltd. in the current situation.
Anyway, there is still a lot of Select stuff which should be portable in a modular way to extend RISC OS 5 with minimal changes - the whole ImageFile* architecture and with it !Paint, the thumbnailing filer, CDFS, networking stack, alpha channel and CMYK sprites... problematic things would surely include the window manager changes (round buttons) and perhaps the system-wide cut&paste&drag of textfield content.
I am quite sure that the money from 130 additional Select subscribers would be more than enough for the work needed to provide such an "IYONIX Select". So we end up with the same conclusion as always: RO Ltd. could do it, but they don't want to do it. For whatever reasons. |
rjek (+1.0)
17/7/07 6:25PM |
In reply to hubersn:
tbh, I'd have thought the ImageFile stack and the new sprite stuff would be much more complex than the WIMP upgrades. Quite a few things depend on new features in the kernel, where all that's happened for rounded buttons is the abstraction of the WIMP's icon drawing routines to an external module. |
stevef
17/7/07 6:48PM |
In reply to rjek:
I thought that ROL were supposed to be * |
stevef (+1.0)
17/7/07 6:50PM |
In reply to rjek:
Good to see that the Show Help and Preview buttons still submit the form, even in NetSurf 1.0...
Anyway... I thought that ROL were supposed to be removing stuff from the kernel and abstracting it to external modules, not adding yet more functionality and then tying down the "ROM applications" to that new code? |
fylfot (+5.5)
17/7/07 6:59PM |
Yes, there is a sense that ROL's answers are excuses rather than truth. Like someone else said, there seems to be an inconsistency in the two reasons given for not producing an IYONIX Select. If a lack of support from Castle is the show-stopping reason, then why was it ever suggested that at least 100 people would need to register their support in order for the project to be pursued? And, of course, 100 people did get together on a pledge bank, but it was quite ruthlessly ignored.
In response to Steve Fryatt's question ("I'm not quite sure what Castle have to do with it?"): I think the point is that it is felt that Castle should have something to do with it. If there's a market for a Select on IYONIX - which there quite obviously is - would Castle not benefit from perhaps a few extra sales of IYONIX pcs and a generally healthier and happier market place, clearly something that would be good for everyone? In other words, ROL and CTL need to cooperate.
Ultimately this is a political issue. Anyone who's asked Castle what they think of Select will know that they haven't got much good to say about it. Select offers nothing that would offer them a commercial advantage when selling to industry over RISC OS 5. So perhaps Castle just don't give a sh*t about the enthusiast market any more? I think this is why I probably have a soft spot for ROL and Advantage6. They're doing stuff that doesn't, on the surface, make much commercial sense. But the difference is RISC OS excites them in a way that has little to do with a profit margin. Most people will know that ROL pay their developers appallingly, if at all. Stuff gets done because of cooperation between geeks, essentially. So, faced with an uncooperative, hard-nosed "show us your money" approach from Castle, there are obvious reasons why the two factions don't get on.
The RISC OS community is a bunch of very decent and generous individuals. I think we forget this because of the bickering caused by the CTL vs ROL politics. Offer an average RISC OS users a slight sniff of the possibility of development and they'll get their cheque books out, even when there are poor guarantees of a return. Without meaning to place myself within the category of "decent and generous" (but go on, I will anyway), I renewed my Select subscription recently when I was not well placed to do so financially. I think there are many like me. Loyal people who love using RISC OS and want to secure its future. I think, therefore, we deserve a bit more respect from ROL and CTL. ROL need to be completely honest with us. We're tired of the lame excuses and the changing goal posts. Is it, as I suspect, because CTL just isn't interested in the enthusiasts' market any more? And if this is true, then I hope CTL might realise the damage of their actions. Perhaps CTL should have a little more respect for those who handed over good money for an IYONIX (the same people who have probably supported you for years, buying Kinetic upgrades, etc) and who do value Select and, therefore, wish to have Select on their computers. I mean, just how disrespectful is it to say to someone who has bought an IX and a Select subscription that Select is crap and we won't make big bucks out of it? This, I submit, is essentially Castle's view. They've said as much at shows, I'm sure others will agree. The "decent and generous" are packing up and leaving because of the fragmentation and because they're treated like sh*t.
ROL and CTL owe it the community to cooperate on this one. If they can't, then we might as well leave them to it.
(Apologies for such an emotional comment. I've had very little sleep recently. But don't worry, it's not the ROL vs. CTL politics that's keeping awake). |
AW
17/7/07 7:21PM |
As you you say they're both in it together and "no comment" when the whole situation with RISC OS is unresolved and is everything to do with Castle as much as it is ROL is the pits.
If only there was an intermediary experience and respected enough and big enough in character to bring the two parties together. |
AMS (+3.0)
17/7/07 7:30PM |
AW wrote>"but no comment as if the even bigger investment in Castle by thousands of RISC OS users over the past 10 years is not their concern and beneath them is downright ignorant and arrogant if true."
Well that's how you're choosing to read it, I would disagree though. Castle paid for and developed the Iyonix and the OS to go with it. Their primary responsibilities are to their customers. At no point was it ever mooted by Castle that Select would ever run on Iyonix. When I bought my machine (in 2003) - I knew full well that Select would not be available at that time (or possibly ever). I was happy enough to content myself that I was buying and paying for a more capable and expandible platform than anything Select natively runs on (and funnily enough that still hasn't changed).
Iyonix is a fine machine, the OS it uses is being opened - and that offers a much greater scope for development than Select can offer. Yes work is needed on the User Interface front (where Select has an edge) but there's nothing insurmountable here in my humble opinion. |
rjek (+0.5)
17/7/07 8:31PM |
In reply to stevef:
Just because something is abstracted from the kernel does not mean it can be run on anything. Things in the most part have been abstracted by creating new interfaces, which RO5's kernel does not have. |
Ike (-1.1)
17/7/07 9:14PM |
I don't see why you all let yourself being provoked into these discussions by these kind of articles. I think the Drobe editors are getting pain in their bellies of thier hilarious laughters when they read what effect they sort.
Just wait and see what comes and (maybe just like I am more and more) when it's not worth it anymore you can completely turn to the dark side one day.
Cheers boys and girls
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| Use the forum for more comments on this article |
RISCOS Ltd is pushing ahead with development for the VirtualRiscPC and A9home platforms after bagging its 1,000th Select subscriber. ROL admitted it is making slow progress with the Iyonix Select port, claiming a "lack of interest from Castle" - but its developers are full-steam ahead with A9home and VRPC work. The company added it has sold over 6,000 vanilla RISC OS 4 ROM sets, 1,800 Adjust ROM sets, but said it has only heard from 130 Iyonix users who want Select on their Xscale-powered machines.
