imj  (+4.0)
25/10/03 2:30PM |
This is absolutely fantastic! Networking "just works" - totally hassle free. ShareFS, Nettle, Oregano, Browse, everything I've tried works wonderfully. The VRPC team are to be greatly congratulated for this achievement, and providing it as a FREE upgrade is even more delightful. Now VRPC does everything I could wish for... my real RiscPCs will be getting used a lot less, now. |
blahsnr (-1.0)
25/10/03 2:45PM |
....does everything your RPC can, except not run Windows/contribute funds to the evil empire etc etc...... |
tamias (+4.0)
25/10/03 4:01PM |
In reply to imj:
isn't this exactly what the RISC OS market is aiming to avoid? I can only find sympathy for someone saying they'll be using their RPCs less if it's because they're upgrading to Omega or Iyonix 
I'm glad the software is so much improved - if I ever do buy a Windows machine (God forbid!) VRPC would certainly be the first (only?) app I bought for it. But I'd have to be pretty desperate to pay for a copy of Windows to run it on, and even then I can't see me using it more than my Iyonix.
I've been playing with the RedHat and Win2k machines at uni and now I've even got a job supporting the Windows machines. Every minute I spend using them makes me even more glad to be using ROS! |
ksattic (+4.0)
25/10/03 5:34PM |
How does the networking work? Is it a virtual switch or a NAT? |
Gerph (+8.0)
25/10/03 6:05PM |
In reply to ksattic:
Neither.
It's a replacement 'Internet' module. Socket operations are translated from the RISC OS SWIs into Windows socket operations with the appropriate mapping to ensure that the environment presented to RISC OS matches that which it expects.
The upshot, if you don't understand the mechanics of this, is that you appear to be using the same networking system as Windows.
This has a down side as well. If you try to use a port that's already in use on Windows you won't be able to. Similarly, any component which attempts to enumerate the DCI drivers, etc will fail because... there aren't any.
If you think of the old Econet module and its relationship to NetI then you're getting an idea of the relationship between 'Native Internet' and the VRPC version.
[For those who don't know, the Econet module provides the interface to the physical Econet hardware, and NetI provides the same interface, but over whatever IP environment happens to be available (including the VRPC Internet). For those who do know, I'm ignoring the evilness that NetI performs in order to provide loopback services to Econet on a mixed hardware system - that part of the comparison does not hold with the VRPC Internet environment.]
Except in very specialised cases, VRPC Internet is completely transparent and painless. |
JessFranco
25/10/03 6:21PM |
VRPC is only for people that use M$ trash. What about those who decided to get the functionality RISC OS lacked from Linux, or went for the lesser of two evil empires by going Apple?
VRPC for my G4 would be welcome. |
imj (+0.5)
25/10/03 7:30PM |
In reply to tamias:
It's I who should feel sorry for you. As it stands, I've got something more powerful flexible and upgradable than my RiscPC. I can use RISC OS on a laptop wherever I am, which means you get more RISC OS applications. Bind yourself to the clear limitations and expense of Iyonix and/or RiscPC and you're only holding yourself back (think portability, speed, upgrade path, concurrency, price...)
It's also your clients who I feel sorry for. Someone who doesn't understand windows should not have a "job supporting Windows" after just "been having a play with Win2k"... that's how the mess arrives. Would you like a gasfitter to come to your home to fix a problem after he's only "been having a play with boilers" ? Worrying. I think this is probably the real reason folks with Windows get themselves in a mess - the blind leading the blind. |
piemmm (-0.1)
25/10/03 7:58PM |
"I think this is probably the real reason folks with Windows get themselves in a mess"
Well, that and the 6 million spyware/parasite progs, viruses, and security holes. |
jess (-1.0)
25/10/03 8:49PM |
Will networking be available for VA5000? |
AndrewDuffell (-1.5)
25/10/03 10:48PM |
Upgrade to VRPC, and you get it. :P |
VirtualAcorn (+1.0)
26/10/03 12:22AM |
I have just uploaded an updated version of the network upgrader to the website. Can anyone who has downloaded a version of the network upgrade prior to 12:30 Sunday morning please download it again as the old one seems to have got its knickers in a twist and didn't want to play ball on a couple of customers Alpha computers. TIA. |
tamias
26/10/03 12:58AM |
In reply to imj:
I also have something more powerful, flexible, and upgradable than my RPC - that it runs RISC OS natively rather than emulated is of no consequence
As I said, I'd have to be pretty desperate to pay for a Windows machine. If I ever get desperate enough, that machine is more than likely to be a portable running VRPC (although I'd gladly take a Linux/VRPC portable any day).
It's the block mentality of "VRPC is here, I'll hopefully never need to use my genuine hardware again" that will eventually kill the market, in my opinion.
As for me "not understanding Windows", perhaps I should have stressed that, compared to how I use and enjoy using my Iyonix, the Windows machines seem little more than toys to me. Far from it that I don't understand them - to use your analogy, the gas fitter is quite sufficiently equipped to fix your average boiler, but he finds more joy in spending time tinkering with his cold-fusion reactor. |
imj
26/10/03 1:10AM |
Cold fusion is close to a myth and useless to mortals though.
It's the "block mentality" of "I refuse to use a Windows box no matter what I could achieve with it" that I find boggling. A bigoted attitude that just holds you back. |
mavhc (-0.5)
26/10/03 7:54AM |
Or do we refuse to belive that a computer running Windows emulating RISC OS can possibly be anywhere near as good as an Iyonix, let alone a RiscPC?
What's the point of keeping all your files on a Windows computer, ready to be erased from existance by the latest virus/spyware program/security hole/failure of Windows to boot, probably after applying patches to fix said security hole? |
jess (-1.0)
26/10/03 10:13AM |
If you need a windows PC anyway (and don't mind all your eggs in one basket) then VRPC is fine. If you don't use windows, then it is a poor way to run RO (In fact several of the sites selling say as much). |
blahsnr (-1.5)
26/10/03 10:36AM |
imj; re block mentality
Bit like refusing to have anything to do with RO5/Iyonix no matter what you could achieve with it. |
arenaman
26/10/03 12:07PM |
For full-time users of RISC OS (ie. those who use RISC OS as their main system), VirtualAcorn is bad news. It's going to impact on hardware sales. If hardware sales fail and consequently there is no more hardware, you won't have any developers left at all. No-one will develop for an emulated system, because it's not going anywhere. And no one will buy a standard Windoze box running a strange OS under emulation - the sexy ARM-based hardware is part of the selling point.
If you use Windows mostly and want occassional access to a recent version of RISC OS, VirtualAcorn is perfect. |
mavhc
26/10/03 12:14PM |
"This upgrade is only required for copies of VirtualRPC-SE with a serial number less than 10449"
How many copies of VRPC does that imply have been sold? 449 I expect. How much profit does ROL make on each one? Is that more copies than they sold for real machines in the same time period? Is that more profit? |
SimonC
26/10/03 12:16PM |
The only way for that to be avoided is for natively running RO machines to be able to clearly out-perform an emulated one. Having a RiscPC outrun by an emulator doesn't bother me; it's a pretty old machine by now, but if the emulator starts doing better than the Iyonix the RISC OS hardware market has serious troubles, since it'll be very hard for anyone to justify not going down the emulation path (ignoring any "pay to support the hardware" or "I won't buy anything that runs Windows" arguments).
Hopefully it'll keep the top end of the native RISC OS market on its toes, although certain key points of that are out of their control (e.g. available processors). |
Mart (+1.0)
26/10/03 12:39PM |
As a mere user of these wonderful tools, and that's all they are arn't we missing the point here in that:
1) Decide what you need to do.
2) Choose most appropriate software (ease of use, cost etc.)
3) Decide which hardware is required to run said software.
For some they all ready have the hardware so just add software others do not so have to make choices. No one can criticise anyone else as to what OS or Software or Hardware they run it on.
It is nice to have a choice! |
cynic (+1.0)
26/10/03 12:45PM |
Reality check. Whatever our feelings about Windows most people find they need it. Much as I'd like to have an Iyonix networked to a Windows PC, and a nice (non-existent) ARM based portable, I can really only afford one machine - guess what that is going to have to be?
It is a shame that there is no ARM hardware on a PC card so that RISC OS could run natively on a suitably equipped PC. ChiOS got scrapped didn't it? |
arenaman
26/10/03 12:59PM |
It's a shame that there is no PC card for the IyonixPC - something most people would prefer, I suspect. However, it would be more useful for any development effort to be spent on bringing software up to scratch so people needed Windows/MacOS less. For example, compare PhotoshopCS to Photodesk... |
blahsnr
26/10/03 1:24PM |
Mart;
Choice is wonderful, if you have it.
I suspect I am in the small minority of RISC OS users for whom 'Deciding what I need to do' includes NOT using Windows.
If within 2 or 3 years the only new machines that can run RISC OS are Windows based emulators then there is no choice left (other than to not use RISC OS at all).
How many times has it been said that 'I would have bought X Y or Z already if it had been half the price'. Well folks the Windows advocates have won the day and you can now get RiscPC performance for half the new price of a RiscPC.
The the real competitor to the Iyonix won't be the Omega but VRPC and with the much bigger Windows userbase of RISC OS 'enthusiasts' I feel rather pessimistic about the outcome of the battle. After all that is what it is isn't it. |
blahsnr
26/10/03 1:30PM |
In reply to arenaman:
Apparently you could plug a PC on a PCI card into the Iyonix. Won't have the same level of integration as the PC cards on the RiscPC but will still sit in one box. IIRC they are rather expensive compared to a standalong PC. |
JessFranco
26/10/03 1:31PM |
I built a Duron 1.1ghz base unit for around 200 quid - and that was ages ago. Probably cheaper now. If you want windows, it's hardly going to break the bank, whatever option you choose.
Personally, the best option as I see it wold to have RISC OS 5 running more of the ARM hardware that's around - new NetBook please - and VRPC available for Linux and Mac OS X. That's the ultimate flexible scenario.
I'm not sure if Castle have any plans for getting RISC OS 5 onto other complex ARM devices - 'embedded RISC OS' could mean just about anything. Actually, RISC OS 5 for NetBook would be a genuine way to get new users 'Hey, turn your big PDA into a proper desktop-like device'. |
dgs
26/10/03 1:49PM |
In reply to blahsnr:
Actually those RISC OS users who prefer not to use Windows are a large minority, not a small one
"Half the new price of a RiscPC" isn't especially relevant - how many people have bought a brand new RiscPC at full price in the last six months anyway? (Almost all of those buying real RISC OS hardware have been buying the Iyonix).
dgs |
mavhc (-1.0)
26/10/03 3:24PM |
In reply to cynic:
if you can only afford 1 machine what are you typing on now? It's not like you have to throw away your RiscPC.
ChiOS type things should be easier to achieve with RISC OS 5.
In reply to blahsnr:
what if there's also unix based emulators?
PCs are so cheap now I can't see a PC card being worth it.
Is letting ROS4 be used in emulators a good move, or a last ditch attempt to cash in and try to stop everyone buying Iyonixes instead? |
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